When I was a kid, learning to tie flies, I had access to some books which if I remember right were basically step by steps for the various types of flies.
I'd love to get my hands on a copy of these again. If I am correct, they took the format of having material types, standard patterns, techniques and then - now this might be the main clue as I know I'm right here - they had a section of about 4 - 6 pages of " colour plates " which showed on each about twelve of the type of flies being studied in full colour.
The books were just smaller if not in fact A4 size and had full colour sleeves over a dark plain blue hardback cover, I think. Each book in the series ( if it was even a series of books ) was about 1 1/2 inches thick. It may have been the fifty popular flies series but I just can't remember.
Any ideas ?
I'll have to have a think about it but it is not "50 Popular Flies" which were soft backs or the later "200 Popular Flies" which was a hard back. Neither had colour plates. Veniard books of a similar vein were around way back but how long is way back. Your way back may not tally with mine.
I have got to have seen it but I will have a wee think.
Tight Lines
Veniard rings a bell and there could have been a gold or silver fly on the hard cover.
" Fly Dressing " seems to ring a bell as being part of the title.
Must've been circa 35 years ago when I was using them Alan and the books could have been older. It's possible it was a single book with different sections on different types of fly. I.e. dry,wet etc,.
I know this isn't much of a help but I distinctly remember the plates having pictures of a zulu, coch-y-bondhu, iron blue dun, I'm sure there was a royal coachman, could've been a grey wulf too as well as many of the other common flies of yesteryear but I don't want to confuse my memory with imagination by naming other flies that weren't there and send someone off on the wrong track. :?
Hope this helps.
David Collyer - "Fly Dressing"?
I'll look at that Malcolm.
I think it's the Veniards book Davy as I was able to see a photo on e-bay of one of the plates. I've ordered 1 from Amazon for £6.95 delivered :shock: but because I'm not used to buying old books may have ordered 1 without a dust cover.
I'll know better in future.
Thanks to all. The Collyer book looks interesting Malcom and I may try to pick one up too !
Dave Collyer rings a bell, tho I don't think it's the book Black Don is thinking of.
This was a horrible pulpy paperback with recipes for obscure American streamer patterns - I remember the Chief Needebah, Parmacheen Belle and Gutenburgs Jersey Minnow. Hey, where would we be without that lot?
This was about the only fly-tying book available (as far as I knew) in 1983.
Can't remember for sure if it was Collyer's book, but it was my bible for a while. And what a rubbish bible!
To be fair, it did explain the whip finish very well.
I don't think that was Collyer. Sounds like one of Veniards. He had a load of stuff with awful drawings of American flies.
TL
MC
Quote from: Alan on December 10, 2011, 07:32:44 PM
ahh the Parmacheen Belle, from fly tyings baroque period :8)
I'd say more from it's
rococo period, either way, a load of shite.
I've never heard of the Jersey minnow but the chief needebah was used on the English reservoirs when I were but a lad. Quite popular too. The parmachene belle looks an ideal candidate for the Endrick Bug treatment for next year!
Parmachene Belle dates from 1878, there are no fewer that four variations of it in Terry Hellekson's "Fish Flies"- wet, Atlantic salmon, steelhead and streamer.
That should cover everything.
Taken from "Favorite flies and their histories" Mary Orvis Marbury, Page 278 and Page 277 for the plate showing the fly. I think Mike has posted this in the Reference section.
"No. 60. The Parmacheene Belle was invented by Mr. Henry P. Wells, and named after Parmacheene Lake, in Maine. Mr. Wells's first mention of this fly is in his interesting paper on " Fly-Fishing in the Rangeley Region " in the second edition of " Fishing with the Fly." Later he writes of it again in his valuable book, "Fly Rods and Fly Tackle," saying: "My first favorite is the 'Parmacheene Belle.' Perhaps I am too partial to this fly, since it is in a measure my own child. John and I seldom fish betAveen half past eleven and four o'clock. That interval is passed prowling about the woods, or shooting at a mark with a rifle, or in some similar way. Often the fly-tying box is produced, and the word is, ' WeU, John, what shall we tease them with this afternoon ?' Thus, on joint suggestion, very many different combinations have been tried, and so some seven years ago was the ' Parmacheene Belle ' born.
It was a success, and since then I have used it four fifths of the time when fishing the headwaters of the Androscoggin River. " Unless I am deceived, these large trout take the fly not as an insect, but as some form of live bait. If this is true, an imitation of some favorite form of food is in itself sufficient under all circumstances, provided it is so conspicuous as readily to be seen. To test this theory the fly in question was made, imitating in color the belly-fin of the trout Itself. " Place the whole catalogue of known flies on the one hand, and this single fly on the other, and force me to choose and confine myself to that choice, and for fishing in those waters I would choose the ' Parmacheene Belle ' every time. I have tried it in sunshine and rain, at noonday and In the gloaming, and at all times it has proved successful."
The Coachman for many years was probably as universally popular in this country as any fly one could mention, but the Parmacheene Belle has come to be its strong rival, and we have astonishing repoi'ts of its success in all waters. Mr. Wells also recommends the Parmacheene Belle for sea troutA fly called the Parmacheene Beau has lately appeared. It is practically the same as the Parmacheene Belle, with the addition of jungle-cock feathers as shoulders, and is an infringement upon the former pattern and name. We feel sure Mr. Wells is not responsible for this latter device."
Mr. Henry P. Wells was the inventor;
http://www.archive.org/stream/flyrodsflytackle00wellrich#page/302/mode/2up (http://www.archive.org/stream/flyrodsflytackle00wellrich#page/302/mode/2up)
Book http://www.archive.org/details/flyrodsflytackle00wellrich
TL
MC
The tying is on page 131.
Parmacheene Belle: body, lemon-yellow mohair, ribbed with scarlet silk, gold or silver tinsel; wings, equal parts white goose and red ibis ; hackle, red ; tail, goose and ibis; tag, gold tinsel. The latter is also a very killing bass fly.
A gaudy lure, then.
Wild confections like this do have their place, I must admit.
When you need an outlandish wet-fly, I dare say it's as good as any number of modern fly-tying freak outs.
Gorgeous George, for example, is pretty fashionable in the Uists at the moment, it's basically a psychedelic nightmare, but with jungle cock and knotted leg 'triggers'
Quote from: Malcolm on December 13, 2011, 02:17:34 PM
I've never heard of the Jersey minnow
Is this possibly the same fly created by Tom Ivens called the Jersey Herd, so called because he used milk bottle tops from bottles of milk which came from Jersey cows in the tying of the fly ?
Now that was a very good fly especially for fry feeding broonies.
Quote from: guest on December 13, 2011, 10:50:12 PM
Is this possibly the same fly created by Tom Ivens called the Jersey Herd, so called because he used milk bottle tops from bottles of milk which came from Jersey cows in the tying of the fly ?
This is the "Jersey Minnow";
http://www.rareandunusual.com/gootenberg.html (http://www.rareandunusual.com/gootenberg.html)
TL
MC
Quote from: Mike Connor on December 14, 2011, 12:17:44 AM
This is the "Jersey Minnow";
http://www.rareandunusual.com/gootenberg.html (http://www.rareandunusual.com/gootenberg.html)
TL
MC
(http://www.rareandunusual.com/gootenbergjminnow.jpg)
Seems to have been a bit of a cross between " The Jersey Herd " a " Matuka "and a "Muddler Minnow"
Mike :shock:
(http://www.flyfishing-and-flytying.co.uk/images/uploads/JH-1.jpg)
(http://www.riverbum.com/images/products/big/Matuka-Dark-Spruce-side.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Muddler_Minnow_Small.jpg)
The top picture there is the one from the book - I remember the peacock herl head and furnace hackle wings.
Actually, it looks pretty good :)
Don't think it bears any relation to the Jersey Herd, apart from the word 'Jersey'
I think it's another American pattern, from the days before mass communication and the crossover between US and UK approaches.
Quote from: Alan on December 13, 2011, 11:38:40 PM
purist fly snob :lol:
i'd like to try some 'fishing side by side comparison' experiments next season, actually try to find which flies are more prolific if any, how could the test be made fair enough to draw conclusions?
Well, we could just fish them side by side.
To make it fair, you can pull the old-school lures, I'll persevere with the usual tactics :)
These big wet flies do seem to pull the bigger fish. I've fished Cam loch many times mostly dry fly or top of the water tactics at least. The one time I did an experiment with a medium sinker and big wets/lures I got much fewer fish but the average size was about 4 times bigger. Boring though.
Quote from: deergravy on December 14, 2011, 09:13:23 PM
The top picture there is the one from the book - I remember the peacock herl head and furnace hackle wings.
Actually, it looks pretty good :)
Don't think it bears any relation to the Jersey Herd, apart from the word 'Jersey'I think it's another American pattern, from the days before mass communication and the crossover between US and UK approaches.
I don't know how you can say that. Obviously the Jersey Minnow was tied in 1938 long before the invention of the Jersey Herd circa late 50's / early 60's but it was tied one year after Don Gapen invented the Muddler Minnow which was another US pattern.
I'm not saying any of these flies were copied or influenced by other patterns but there is no denying obvious similarities.
Quote from: Alan on December 14, 2011, 11:53:48 PM
one has a big feather on top :D
A more sparsely tied muddler
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQTrvYhS-TydRgWUpkhwUdNFZ6PSrUDk4TJqt7B1UQXLi3P4wsoiA)
The similarities to the Jersey Minnow and ultimately the Jersey Herd are unmistakeable :roll:
Quote from: col on December 15, 2011, 12:10:36 AM
quite fancy trying tying up some of these hackle wing streamers,was going to try a black ghost or silver darter are they useful for wild broonies or gave they been superseeded?
Some work quite well. It is usually best if you can "match" any local bait fish, but sometimes even outlandish stuff works. Some "desperation" patterns have produced for me on occasion.
I have caught very many browns on this fly, the "Sweeney Todd" this was originally invented by Richard Walker.
(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/5897/sweeney.jpg) (http://img822.imageshack.us/i/sweeney.jpg/)
hook: long shank, # 6-10
thread: black
tail: nothing
body: black floss, fluorescent Magenta wool yarn to the front end
ribbing: fine oval silver tinsel
throat hackle: crimson
wing: black squirrel but black hackles will also work. ( I do much better using marabou or fox tail MC).
For some other ideas have a look here;
http://globalflyfisher.com/streamers/guest/stewart_leeman/ (http://globalflyfisher.com/streamers/guest/stewart_leeman/)
http://globalflyfisher.com/streamers/index.php (http://globalflyfisher.com/streamers/index.php)
These flatwings can be very good indeed when various bait fish are about. They swim very differently to other types of streamer.
http://globalflyfisher.com/streamers/raske/flatwing/flatwing.htm (http://globalflyfisher.com/streamers/raske/flatwing/flatwing.htm)
TL
MC
Quote from: col on December 15, 2011, 01:36:12 AM
thanks mike . i found it interesting that you pointed out that you do better with marabou versions, one thing that struck me about these older faithfuls is that, they don't look like they have the movement of marabou or arctic fox type streamers and that perhaps they have sentimental attraction or just a fly tiers eye candy rather than some of the more current effective preferances.
Indeed, when I first started making flies many years ago now I always went to considerable pains to try and get the "right" material as specified in various patterns. One day I happened to run out of black squirrel tail, ( Squirrel is a "hard" hair which can be difficult to use anyway), and so I tried a bunch of black marabou with a black hen hackle on either side. Although the squirrel variation caught quite well this "soft" version was very much better. I then left off the hen hackles and it still caught well. The fish do tend to rip the marabou up a bit and once the "wing" gets too short it loses much of its seductive wiggling action. While looking for a more robust substitute with a similar action I tried the fox tail. Both the marabou and the fox tail versions catch a very great deal better for me than the original squirrel tail versions.
TL
MC
The fly that Mike posted was responsible for what maybe the best catch of wild brownies that I have ever heard of. It was a catch of 4 wild brownies from Lanlish in 24 hours which I think was around 28lbs. The picture used to be on the wall of the Cape Wrath hotel.
The book Arrived today and it was indeed John Veniard's Fly Dressers' Guide. All of the standards were there as was the Parmacheene Belle, a Matuka ( which I thought was a modern fly ), a Muddler Minnow and the Chief Needebah. No sign of the Jersey Herd or Jersey Minnow though.
I'm amazed at the contents of this book as what we talk about now was obviously a topic for discussion way back in 1952 when the book was first published.
What is relevant now seems to have been relevant then and although the patterns don't use marabou or other " modern " materials I learned very much of what I know about fly tying today from this book.
Tying techniques, step by steps, recipes and colour photaes et al. How did we ever manage without the internet ? :)