Anyone use wide gape hooks and do you think they hold fish any better? I notice in the Davie McPhail videos he uses them a fair bit. For example: hooks that have size 16 shank length but a size 14 gape.
Quote from: admin on January 05, 2014, 09:51:40 PM
Anyone use wide gape hooks and do you think they hold fish any better? I notice in the Davie McPhail videos he uses them a fair bit. For example: hooks that have size 16 shank length but a size 14 gape.
I use B160 for most of my wet fly/ spider patterns - I like the short shank and wide gape - a lot of guys down here tie on a B175 but I prefer B160 as I think it gives a better profile to the fly. One of my local rivers is now barbless only so currently looking for barbless hooks similar to the B160.
Me and a friend lost a few good fish on Corrib last year while Caenis fishing and we put it down to the narrow gape of the flies we were using - this year we are going to use the same patterns but on a wider gape hook - hopefully we see a big difference
Ian
I like wide gapes for beadheads and for bulky bodied flies. I feel the dressing or the beadhead can hinder hooking and the wide gape helps counteract that. Whether I am right or not, I don't know and I couldn't say whether they hold fish better than a standard gape.
What I am sure of though is that I lose a lot more fish on really long shanked hooks.
Alex
Wide gape has been around in various forms for many years. Good example is the Capt Hamilton range from Partridge.
Do they hold fish better, I have no idea, Some may say so & some have no opinion one way or t'other. At best subjective. I went through my Capt Hamilton period many years ago. Never noticed one way or other if the "were better" why? because I was too busy fishing to spend even if I wanted to the merits or otherwise of the shape.
Whats the best hook. I''ll tell you the ones I like.
The old Alex Martin "outpoint" style was a good hook to my mind, a concept much copied m in Salmon hooks like the Esmond Drury range today.
For wet flies I liked the old Limerick bend but today I rely on a Sproat shape which I think is a nice compromise between the older Limerick & a standard round bend. I try to get a compromise between hooking & strength. No point in a fine wire hook that hooks OK only to straighten with minimum pressure, a problem I found with certain Tiemco hooks a while back. Like wise a reversed or sneck bend may be someones cup of tea but the few times I used them I saw no advantage one way or other.
Only hook I have really had problems with is the TMC 200R whilst looks good on a fly such as sedge or stonefly nymph is inherently a poor hooker. Likewise Long shank hook can be poor hookers if not for barb but the fact that the shank is so darn long so leverage will play a factor I reckon.
Too heavy a gauge whilst strong throws up it own set of problems.
A selection of hook styles to suit the fly type I am using, is what I strive for. There are numerous hooks out there many of which I have not tried & I dare say some of them are good so I will leave it to others to bring their thoughts to the fore.
Tight Lines
Quote from: mackiia1 on January 05, 2014, 10:02:29 PM
Me and a friend lost a few good fish on Corrib last year while Caenis fishing and we put it down to the narrow gape of the flies we were using - this year we are going to use the same patterns but on a wider gape hook - hopefully we see a big difference
That's interesting Ian. These things can be difficult to quantify, but mind and tell us how it goes.
Quote from: haresear on January 05, 2014, 10:06:35 PM
What I am sure of though is that I lose a lot more fish on really long shanked hooks.
Me too, far more. The number of really big fish I have lost on streamers has been a bit depressing. That's the subtext of this thread. Has losing fish got anything to do with the gape - shank length ratio?
Quote from: Highlander on January 05, 2014, 10:27:04 PM
Do they hold fish better, I have no idea, Some may say so & some have no opinion one way or t'other. At best subjective.
That's interesting Alan. It is really difficult to quantify these things. There are so many variables. Like Alex I can say absolutely that I lose more fish on long shank hooks and as I said above I was wondering if it had anything to do with the ratio of shank length to hook gape.
QuoteOnly hook I have really had problems with is the TMC 200R whilst looks good on a fly such as sedge or stonefly nymph is inherently a poor hooker.
I hate those things. I tried flaring the point out with forceps and that helps.
Alex
The absolute worst holding hooks (non streamer) I have used are Partridge Extreme Klinkhamer, though oddly enough I have had quite few big fish (3 to 5 lb) on them in New Zealand and they held them well enough. It's wee fish at home that seem to drop off more. I always fish barb-lees, so perhaps that has something to do with the weight being insufficient to get and keep a good hold. Joe had the same issues with these hooks and stopped using them.
Fulling mill have been coming out with some superb barbless hooks of late , don't ask me the code for them lol , but I've been getting mine from Lathkill and they have a short shank and wider gape . I've found I have been losing less fish or it might just be luck who knows :D
I must have a look at those FM hooks - are they heavy or medium wire hooks
Stan endorses Fulling Mill Hooks so they must be the best. :D
QuoteStan endorses Fulling Mill Hooks so they must be the best
I use them too, so must be the best then..
:roll:
Kidding aside Fulling Mill Medium are the ones I use for "most" of my Wet Fly. They offer a good range of styles on their other hooks & to date I have not been let down by them. Certainly worth trying some if you have not already done so.
On as an aside they are made by Hayabusa, just badged with Fulling Mill.
Tight Lines
QuoteI must have a look at those FM hooks - are they heavy or medium wire hooks
They do a full range. There are fine wire options and meathooks too :) If I remember right the heavy wire versions have the suffix "1".
QuoteOn as an aside they are made by Hayabusa, just badged with Fulling Mill.
I had thought they might have been Kamasans, but that clears that up. I use FM a lot too. Very good hooks, unlike the dreaded Varivas 2200. I probably have one or two hundred of those and if anyone wants them they are welcome.
QuoteThe longer the shank the more leverage and out pops the hook. I used to tie a minnow on long shank 12's for the Devon river browns but it lost 80% of the fish. On the other hand my main sea trout fly was on a size 4 longshank and this held reasonably well (as well as anything else with fresh run sea trout). So it would seem bigger LS hooks are better than smaller ones.
That mirrors my own experiences.
QuoteHowever I think you can go too far the other way. I gave up on wide gape hooks because I never seemed to hook many fish on them. I can't recall what pattern they were and anyway I seem to be on my own in not liking wide gapes.
I generally prefer a more standard hook too in terms of shank length/gape and it is only really when I think the hooking ability is compromised by the shape of the body or suchlike that I bring the wide gapes into play. Sometimes with say beadheads I will just dress the fly "short" by tying a relatively small dressing on a larger size of hook. It gives pretty much the same result as the wide gape.
Alex
Quote from: mackiia1 on January 05, 2014, 11:13:33 PM
I must have a look at those FM hooks - are they heavy or medium wire hooks
They come in different gauges mate , right up too black nickel for wets , nymphs etc . Used kamasan for years then tried these , never looked back .
That's a good illustration of the difference in the angle of pull Andy.
QuoteUp eyed hooks are also less good at hooking than down eyed for the same reason but I'm probably into splitting hairs now.
I don't think you are splitting hairs at all. I have a couple of packets of up-eyed hooks (Turral I think) which I won't use for that very reason. They are quite short in the shank too, meaning they are particularly poor hookers .
Alex
OK, with ref. to Andy's photos and up eyed hooks being worse- does it follow that shank length for shank length wider gape hooks are less effective at hooking up than standard gape hooks because the angle of penetration of the hook point depends on the distance between the hook point and the point of pull - which is the eye?
Quotedoes it follow that shank length for shank length wider gape hooks are less effective at hooking up than standard gape hooks because the angle of penetration of the hook point depends on the distance between the hook point and the point of pull
In a word, yes. But that angle of pull can be easily changed to be more effective if the hook point is curved inward to be more in line with the eye if that makes sense? A bit like those beaked sea hooks - baitholders.
Alex
Andy we are obviously on the same train of thought, which is worrying for you :lol:
Here's some info on hooks from Mustad.. http://www.mustad.no/230912www/products/hookanatomy.html (http://www.mustad.no/230912www/products/hookanatomy.html)
Alex
Quote from: Suki1312 on January 06, 2014, 07:28:21 PM
They come in different gauges mate , right up too black nickel for wets , nymphs etc . Used kamasan for years then tried these , never looked back .
I just got some of the FM barbless hooks - the code is - FM 35025 - if anyone interested.
They look perfect - sizes 12 and 14 for spider / wets during the early season.
Thanks for the heads up. :D
Ian
Good man Ian , good heads up on the code . You won't be disappointed smashing hooks ;D
Have to agree with everything above, the comment about the Klink extreme in particular, lost a really good fish on the Suir a year or two back and am convinced they were the reason, came home and threw everyone I had in the bin. For salmon fishing with Irish shrimps I always use partridge code Ps although quite difficult to proportion well at times they are a great holder of a lively fish and really strong. Have been tying a bit on FM grab gape this winter, look good so far.