The Wild Fishing Forum

Hi Folks, I'm tying to find a supplier for whiting farms Spey capes in the UK but not having much joy. Can anyone help ? I know Lakeland are dealers but they tell me that they don't have the Spey capes and don't think there will be any available in the very near future.
There must be some hiding somewhere? :shock:

Cheers
Jim

http://www.troutcatchers.co.uk/whiting-farm-necks-c102x2679627 (http://www.troutcatchers.co.uk/whiting-farm-necks-c102x2679627)

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Far-West-Fly-Shop/Spey-/_i.html?_fsub=435848719 (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Far-West-Fly-Shop/Spey-/_i.html?_fsub=435848719)

http://www.funkyflytying.co.uk/shop/categories/whiting-hen-capes/173/ (http://www.funkyflytying.co.uk/shop/categories/whiting-hen-capes/173/)

I've had a look at the troutcatchers pack but it is a marabou substitute for the Spey hackles. Funky Fibre is just standard whiting capes. There are one or two on Ebay but they are in the USA and it's hard to get an idea of the quality. Again, many are the 'chickabou substitute.
It might come down to using ebay for an American cape but that's last resort stuff. I know where to get one from a Danish supplier which may be an option but it is an expensive one !

I have a packet of Spey Hackles from an American tier that I will never use, see link below. They are a selection of different colours not many in the packet but are "proper" Spey hackles all be is a million miles from The River Spey   :lol:

http://www.flyanglersonline.com/flytying/atlantic/speyhackle.php (http://www.flyanglersonline.com/flytying/atlantic/speyhackle.php)

Now having said all that you might want to try "Schlappen" hackles. These can be used fo Spey flies at a push.
http://www.sportfish.co.uk/schlappen-feathers.html (http://www.sportfish.co.uk/schlappen-feathers.html)
Not many tiers today will ever tie a proper Spey fly nowadays, would be nice to see your attempts. I doubt you will get these in the UK simply because there would be little demand. A book you would find useful is

Shrimp & Spey  Flies For Salmon:  Chris Mann & Robert Gillespie    ISBN  1-873674-562-X

Tight Lines

From what I can gather, the whiting farm Spey hackle isn't the type that would suit the classic Spey style salmon fly. I believe it is a bit stiffer and finer in the fibre as well as being a fair bit longer . I am hoping to tie a few Pattegrisen shrimp style sea trout flies for saltwater use next year. The whiting cape is the recommended material and I need to get it in a white / cream or light grizzle if I can.
I can get a perfect cape for about £60 but I think that's a bit pricey for something that has a limited use. I think I might have to look at the Schalpen and larger cheaper Indian capes to see if I can find a similar substitute.
The subs that are available seem to be geared towards replacing the soft webby sort of hackles that the Classic spey salmon flies require.
The guys I've spoken to so far confirm your doubts that they don't stock them because there is no demand. It seems they are in high demand in Denmark, Norway etc where these shrimp flies are popular. Whiting appear to have sold on their entire stock to dealers in these countries. That's probably why the price is similar to a good quality dry fly cape !

I had to google what a pattegrisen fly was there but I don't think schlappen would do for it Jim, they have a kind of thick fibre not really like the whispy, fine, long fibre on those patterns ( I've got some red schlappen if you want to try it) what about the longer hackles at the top of a cock saddle? Might do the trick if you find one a suitable length

Cheers Andy, thanks for the offer but like you I don't think it will work for this pattern either. The Whiting Spey hackles are pretty unique and I can see why they've been chosen for this pattern. I think that some patterns have a certain something that adds to their effectiveness and for this one, to my mind, it's this hackle.
I'm going to have a serious go at the saltwater sea trout next year and I'm going to try it with some Scandinavian patterns rather than the adapted trout patterns that are commonly fished for them in Scotland. I don't know how this will pan out fish wise, we shall see, but  however it goes I'm going to try to stick to the patterns as best I can unless I can see an obvious way to improve them, which I suspect is unlikely ! :lol:
I've found a great shop in Denmark that has everything I'm after including the Spey hackles. I'll order a few things after the xmas madness is over and hopefully i'll get a few done before 11th Feb when battle will commence !

Cheers
Jim

Aye sometimes you just have to bit the bullet and treat yourself! Merry xmas  :D

If you are looking for an alternative to the heron hackle used on Spey flies as it is now illegal to even possess heron material without an A10 Certificate then dyed blue eared pheasant is a half decent alternative. Steve Cooper at Cookshill is as good as anybody for this. If you actually require medium to long barbed saddle hackles then Christina at Chevron should be able to help you out. Her hen capes are excellent quality. Just tell her the average length of fibre you are looking for and she will sort you out. You can also try Toby Merigan at Funky Fly Tying. He does a new range called Nature's Spirit. These are a very good hackle but I find them a little bit dense. The problem you will have with anything from Herbert Whiting is consistency of supply. Also for the stock that is still around people think that they can charge a pot of gold for it. When all is said and done they are just cock or hen feathers. Back in the day when Spey flies were first utilised the poor pilgrim fly dresser had to use what was to hand. I dare say that the consistency of materials was a bit scatter gun. No offence intended but your fish will probably not give a rats arse what you've used or where you've got it from  :D

Hi Bud, I'm not looking for Heron or an alternative to Heron. I think the name of this hackle / cape is a wee bit misleading. I don't think anyone would consider this the best hackle for tying traditional Spey style salmon flies. It is finer and stiffer than the preferred options for the traditional Spey salmon patterns and unfortunately the capes came from a few Whiting Farms specifically bred birds. I've spoke to the main fly tying material suppliers in the UK including Steve Cooper and Nigel at Lakeland and they tell me that whiting sold what was left of their stock to the Scandinavian countries who can't get enough for their shrimp patterns. It seems that this style of hackle wasn't much of a seller over here so no one is stocking it. I can understand that to an extent as it seems to be very expensive for a decent one. They are retailing at £120 and more for a full cape and due to its unique characteristics it is not going to lend itself to tying too many different patterns.
I can't say I'm keen on spending that sort of money so it will be a half cape for me if I buy.  Believe me, if I could find a decent alternative that gave the same effect as this hackle I wouldn't be giving a rats arse about what it was or where it came from either. You are talking to someone who has caught trout and salmon with material cut from an old synthetic rug and ornamental flowers from his mothers hallway vase  :lol:

Don't know if this link is any good to you but it's to a fly called the 'poor mans pattegrisen' it uses Spey hackle but hen instead of cock, don't know if it's easier to find but think it must be cheaper (or it's a pretty shit name for the fly!) anyway sbs might be worth a look. Do like these flies, very pretty!

http://theonefly.com/?p=535 (http://theonefly.com/?p=535)

Quote from: rannoch raider on December 23, 2015, 12:34:06 PM
Hi Bud, I'm not looking for Heron or an alternative to Heron. I think the name of this hackle / cape is a wee bit misleading. I don't think anyone would consider this the best hackle for tying traditional Spey style salmon flies. It is finer and stiffer than the preferred options for the traditional Spey salmon patterns and unfortunately the capes came from a few Whiting Farms specifically bred birds. I've spoke to the main fly tying material suppliers in the UK including Steve Cooper and Nigel at Lakeland and they tell me that whiting sold what was left of their stock to the Scandinavian countries who can't get enough for their shrimp patterns. It seems that this style of hackle wasn't much of a seller over here so no one is stocking it. I can understand that to an extent as it seems to be very expensive for a decent one. They are retailing at £120 and more for a full cape and due to its unique characteristics it is not going to lend itself to tying too many different patterns.
I can't say I'm keen on spending that sort of money so it will be a half cape for me if I buy.  Believe me, if I could find a decent alternative that gave the same effect as this hackle I wouldn't be giving a rats arse about what it was or where it came from either. You are talking to someone who has caught trout and salmon with material cut from an old synthetic rug and ornamental flowers from his mothers hallway vase  :lol:

Let me know what colour and what barb lengths you want and your address please? I will post you a few individual Chevron hen hackles. Christina's hens are better than most other suppliers cock hackles. These obviously will not get to you until the New Year. If they are no good to you then maybe look at Toby Merigan's Natures Spirit stuff

Quote from: Lochan_load on December 23, 2015, 12:43:41 PM
Don't know if this link is any good to you but it's to a fly called the 'poor mans pattegrisen' it uses Spey hackle but hen instead of cock, don't know if it's easier to find but think it must be cheaper (or it's a pretty shit name for the fly!) anyway sbs might be worth a look. Do like these flies, very pretty!

http://theonefly.com/?p=535 (http://theonefly.com/?p=535)

Yeah, Cheers Andy, seen that one and a few others. There are a number of alternatives to the pattern but I really like those that use the whiting spey hackles. The bloody thing might not even work over here ! :)

The hackles in that step by step are dyed blue eared pheasant. 

What makes you think that SD ? the author claims it is Whiting Spey Hen.  Are we missing something ?

Quote from: rannoch raider on December 23, 2015, 02:26:06 PM
What makes you think that SD ? the author claims it is Whiting Spey Hen.  Are we missing something ?

With all due respect Whiting Spey Hen is not a real bird it is a brand name dreamed up by some marketing genius at Herbert Whiting to get you to buy their feathers for which they appear to be charging a premium. Blue eared pheasant is a real true to life bird that I would stake next months rent on is used for the purpose you are looking for. Don't take my word for it here are some images:









And finally an image from the step by step which was referred to:




If these are not the same feathers then I will gladly show my bare naked arse in Aberdeen Town Hall window

To answer your question I suggest you may be missing me trying to offer you advice. That is of course your choice. Good looking with your search for Whiting Spey Hackles

Hi SD, I understand that Whiting is a brand name. I also understand that the words Spey and Hen are descriptions of a type of feather and the sex of the bird that these feathers were taken from. I am sure someone somewhere will be tying saltwater shrimp patterns with Dyed Blue Eared Pheasant feathers so I reckon you won't need to worry about going 'bare arsed' in Aberdeen. In fact, with Aberdeen being full of Aberdonians,  I'd strongly warn against such action unless you take the precaution of sticking a broken bottle up your rear end or can clench your checks firmer than a sharks arse at 50 fathoms to deter would be 'trespassers' :shock:
I've had a look at it, the pheasant feather that is! And from what I can see it is certainly favoured for tying traditional Spey style salmon  patterns which isn't a surprise as it is very like Heron. it also works out considerably more expensive at around one dollar per feather than buying a cape from the birds genetically bred by Tom Whiting would be.
I think the feather in the step by step is Spey Hen as described by the author. There is a big difference in the density, fibre length and in the interlocking of the fibres in the Blue Eared Pheasant. It looks very soft as well. I can see why you could suggest it as a possible alternative though and I appreciate the heads up.

Cheers
Jim

Great thread this the  pattegrisen fly looks great , can see why the hackles get bought up quick especially in the shrimp colours.

You might get a similar effect using a dubbing loop with some craft fur , will try one tonight.

You are right on the money there Shad, There a re a few step by steps of people using that technique to make some cracking shrimp patterns. They look excellent.

Quick effort while dinner is cooking with the dubbing loop and hareline select craft hair salmon pink.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/qM7jl0vviwldrbiNBu5jhsdS-A8mXC67945cexAk72RXTQWnuC6MCTYh_zuNmR0KZ6T76FHEFT-OOBTIRgT9U-2NNWeZVLQPs03ry70iRmskzFgroMRKulwTfHok4d1Up7K88Qw0vYXA1qTnP6n1nm4o6pBE3D6WG-cS102TiwR_JGLS8siJIjxBBkW3HU-RwymqP-lEh534S92nHHnM3Hdc_5PuKBnqIzxv4J9-e0sxvnOMpUNBJ-PmF6T1nZ76kFjylFYgmSq9dSF4ROESiZjzXeDRJ4DGOAi1QVai9Mc01141ZdVppTvJCwNzgotUObAnjUTvhY-q-YxBcEH6fgJMVwQjh_i9Ra32qrWMrBDZ2ejlHlgn2aCEK355R_29NCYwAeRFqjsNTzW1MS42tlDJbADwhGXeiQPeSBIJFb-oNmxmoiOxk1J9HRJ_s6kfMFOAOQZ16HxKhnCtxrZq8ZgLKM2wPrff9HhC2D2GX7srUvJvzoAE4LoVxDOFUhg32k3sSo3yqdZdXmhnYehKfc3vuRmQpJ81Kh_ujEptGv43mNQvZ4AUX_04XVF8z-ecmzMQ=w1247-h701-no)

Hope that uploads, had problems with pics last time I tried.If you track down a cape in a nice light pink Id be interested in going halves, that ebay seller in the US didnt seem to have any, only chickabou which might be OK but Im not sure.

ATB Colin

Good job Colin. That's a nice colour. I do know where I can get a Cape. There is a shop in Denmark selling them but as I said they are very expensive ! :shock: I'll keep sniffing around for something more local for a few days yet.

Colin, do that in a crawfish red/brown & you'll have the Extremadura carp jumping on it like tonto and kimosabe  :8)
at the risk of fuelling further discord, why not marabou? a bit too fluffy, I guess?

Here's the fly that I'm hoping to put together. There are numerous versions but I like this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxKTGBahEds (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxKTGBahEds)


I think after seeing this most people will understand why I think the proper hackle is an important part of this fly?

Quote from: corsican dave on December 23, 2015, 08:01:14 PM
Colin, do that in a crawfish red/brown & you'll have the Extremadura carp jumping on it like tonto and kimosabe  :8)
at the risk of fuelling further discord, why not marabou? a bit too fluffy, I guess?

Think Im going to buy one of these looks just the right colour,will post some feathers up.

Forgot to post link!- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fly-Tying-Whiting-Spey-Hackle-Hen-Saddle-Burnt-Orange-E-/291419350779?hash=item43d9f266fb (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fly-Tying-Whiting-Spey-Hackle-Hen-Saddle-Burnt-Orange-E-/291419350779?hash=item43d9f266fb)

Fed up looking , just bought a half cape from Denmark. Problem solved ! :)

This looks to me like  "for the dubbing only the armpit hair from a menstruating Yeti will do" nonsense that  T&S and FF&FT were both famous for.  :lol:

Here's how our own Davie MacPhail ties this fly in good old canny Scot fashion using ordinary inexpensive materials.  :8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taWwdmddHNw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taWwdmddHNw)

You can also make your own eyes for peanuts, the Veniard pre-made jobs are over £6 for a small packet. Glass beads cost pennies on Ebay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irliS1Ac_UA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irliS1Ac_UA)

good videos those Fred. there's a couple of subtle little hints & tips, like cutting materials at an angle to aid taper, that make all the difference

but, where do you get the menstruating yak hair from as a matter of interest?

Quote from: rannoch raider on December 23, 2015, 08:12:31 PM
I think after seeing this most people will understand why I think the proper hackle is an important part of this fly?

to be honest Jim, no I don't.  :lol: but then I come from the DILLIGAF school of fly tying  :8)

Quote from: corsican dave on December 24, 2015, 09:10:28 AM
but, where do you get the menstruating yak hair from as a matter of interest?

I believe Whiting Farms have started a breeding programme  :lol:

in Denmark, by any chance?  :8)

Seriously, do not get conned with this nonsense.  As Geoff says the fish don't give a rat's arse what the name of the feather is or how much it costs. The robust tips from turkey marabou (you know, the bits that sometimes  get thrown away  :roll: )  would also  do for the front feelers / legs admirably.

FF&FT and  T&S were famous for this crap. A list of obscure materials , suppliers of which were usually listed at the end of the article. At best silly, at worst dishonest.

Here's another tying using a dubbing loop. It demonstrates good tying technique without even having a voice over!    :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJrMLXBcBZc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJrMLXBcBZc)

I like the effect this has on the pattern. Yes, I agree that there will be other ways to get a similar effect and some will be cheaper. I suppose its like jungle cock in a way. Its expensive but there is no real substitute that's as good as the real thing so we just buy it. Blue Elver type feathers, Bronze mallard, The long, webby, green blue hackles of the Goats Toe, Blue Jay feathers, Chadwick's Killer Bug yarn.There are a lot of materials out there that can be copied or omitted from patterns but if you want the full on effect that makes these patterns as effective as they are, then the original materials usually win hands down.
I've never really considered myself to be a tackle tart but I do think that if you are spending big money on sage rods, fancy reels, casting lessons, reading books, learning about presentation and travelling world wide to pursue sport then the next most impactive thing you can do to increase your chances of success is to present the best possible pattern on your hook. It all comes down to that. All other things being even, what you put in front of the fish can make the difference between success and failure.
If I fish a shrimp imitation all day long in the knowledge that I might cover just one fish, I'd want to be very confident that I had done everything possible where the metal meets the meat to give me the best possible chance of a hook up. I couldn't fish a fly that I thought was second rate.  :?

It's all a confidence trick. Don't let The Man fool you!  :lol:

I get both sides off this coin, fish will take any fly that looks like food but confidence is a massive factor in both catching fish and enjoying your fishing;There's nothing worse than that niggling feeling that you might be fishing the wrong fly!
This may be a case also where fly tying becomes a stand alone hobby/craft all on its own. Bob wyatt talks absolute sense about flies and tying but I still strive to tie better flies and seek out very specific materials (sometimes at some expense) in order to achieve a specific look. I say if it makes you happy and you enjoy the search and the end product go for it! Do we really need it? Na but there's worse things to spend money on than overpriced premium feathers  :lol:

Quote from: Lochan_load on December 25, 2015, 10:41:19 PM
Na but there's worse things to spend money on than overpriced premium feathers  :lol:

Indeed, like £800 fly rods - another bit of nonsense!  :lol:

As you say Andy, whatever floats your boat, but my recent return to using good photographic gear has really underlined what a complete and utter rip off fishing tackle can be when you see what you get for your money. Sage et al must think we are daft and they are probably right.  :lol: