Hi guys,
Thought I'd hit two birds with one stone here and answer a couple of queries about the DHS and DHE.
DHS
Wing colour. I use medium grey deer hair. I find elk a bit stiff. Roe is okay in small sizes but it tends to matt when wet. Coastal blacktail is a bit better. The lighter wing is mostly for a sighter for the angler, it shows up well on our dark waters.
I've fished this fly for almost fifty years, and the trout haven't wised up to it yet.
Here's a photo of the standard dark claret version we use to such effect up north. For some reason the dark claret seal's fur body is just deadly in a mayfly hatch. I often had trout take this fly from among perfectly good natural green drakes on the water, so go figure. About a 70/30% mix of black and claret. I recommend natural seal's fur though, not that nasty synthetic stuff.
(http://wildfisher.co.uk/uploads/DHSedge-2006Mar261143382634.jpg)
DH Sedge (photo Hans Weilenmann)
http://www.danica.com/flytier/
DHE
Don't try to tie in too much hair. Keep it a bit on the sparse side. Tie it in with the tips facing over the hook eye, then trim the butts in a tapered cut toward the bend and tie them down neatly with thread.
Originally, I tied in the dubbing at the lower end of the hook bend and wound it toward the wing. Then I would use the tag end of the tying thread as a counter-wise rib up to the thorax.
Now I dub the tying thread at the wing base and wind the dubbing back around the bend, and then just wind the tying thread back up the body as a rib. It's quicker and everything is wound in the same direction so things hang together better. You want to start the dubbing noodle off quite skinny so it doesn't build up too much bulk over the wing butts.
For the thorax, I dub the waxed thread quite thickly with spiky hare's mask at the eye and wind back to the wing base, this forces the wing upright. I give a good couple of turns of the dubbing at the wing base then take the thread forward again through the dubbing to the eye.
Use any colour dubbing you wish for the abdomen. I tend toward the buggy greys and natural hare's ear myself.
(http://wildfisher.co.uk/uploads/DHE-2006Mar261143387688.jpg)
DHE (Hans Weilenmann photo)
http://www.danica.com/flytier/
Remember to gink only the wing , or at most the top of the thorax, so the DHE fishes correctly. If you get floatant on the abdomen the fly will often float on its side. Which is wrong. :wink:
That's it.
I use the DHE as a static fly, but sometimes use it with a Sedge on the bob. Sometimes two DHEs. Sometimes two Sedges. If I am working the flies at all, I use the Sedge, or two. Three is taking it too far.
I'd like to say here that although I've fished the no-hackle Deer Hair Sedge most of my life there are similar flies out there, so I don't think of it as 'my' fly. It's just my variation on a theme. But I appreciate your enthusiasm for these flies, boys. Go get 'em. Tight lines.
Bob
A very well timed topic for me as I'm tying up my first ever DHS's for the new season. I'm not a stranger to deer hair and tying it in but I'm having real problems replicating the look on the fly in the photo above. That is where the wing is pretty separate from the body and only comes into contact with it where it's tied in at the head. Most of mine have hair splayed around the sides to some extent. And I guess that might be a problem when fishing the fly as the body might not sit quite right in the surface film as it should. I've used elk and roe and it's the same problem with both.
And tips?? - kind of thread used, how much tension to tie the deer hair in with and anything else that might help?
Cheers
Gerry
Thanks Swithun - Ok so maybe my pinch is defective thinking about it! How do you avoid the Muddler effect when cranking down on the deer hair. When I really give the deer hair some tension it invariably spins round the hook. BTW - if breaking thread is a problem I can recommend Moser Powersilk - excellent stuff which takes some breaking!
Cheers
Gerry
That DHE in the photo above is a work of art. The photo is superb too.
Drumgerry,
Swithun is right about the pinch, but it's just as important to make at least two complete, fairly snug, wraps with the thread before really tightening down on the deer hair. It will flare, but shouldn't spin too much. Don't worry about hair splaying out at the sides too much, it's not critical, and you can trim these when you are shaping the semi-muddler head if it is too bushy. It's a mistake to use too much hair. The big thing about these flies is the body profile in the surface, not the wing. Less hair makes a more natural looking wing profile anyway, lets a little light through.
When I have the hair cinched down good, I roughly trim the butts just a shade longer than I need for the head, then take the thread right through the flared butts in two tight turns to the eye and whip finish.
Don't worry about wrapping down the butts, the thread will go right through it cleanly and it really makes the head and wing secure. I usually spin my bobbin a few times to twist the thread so it goes through the hair cleanly.
Then shape the semi-muddler head with the scissors. I then turn the fly upside down and apply a good dollop of cement to the underside of the muddler head. Let it soak right in to the thread. The fly will now be pretty well bullet proof. The wing won't twist.
I use Benecchi 6/0 and 8/0, depending on the size of fly. Put as much pressure on the thread as it will take. You'll break a few times until you get the feel for it. You can just feel the thread fibers start to separate before it breaks. Back off before then. I find Uni-thread separates and fuzzes up more than Benecchi.
Thanks for that Bob!
Up till now I've been pulling the butts back and wrapping my thread in front of them a la Muddler style before clipping. I'll need to try your method now! :D I have some Benecchi thread so I'll try that as well - one thing about the Powersilk is that feels very slippy and I wonder if the thread base for the deer hair is a bit insecure. And I think flaring rather than spinning is more what has been happening when I've been tying the DHS. The hair doesn't go underneath the hook but out to the sides and in a wid-ish fan from top to bottom - not the lovely compact wing shown in your photo!
Cheers
Gerry
Quote from: drumgerryBTW - if breaking thread is a problem I can recommend Moser Powersilk - excellent stuff which takes some breaking!
Cheers
Gerry
For gods sake watch how hard you pull powersilk! It
will not break, ! It will however bend your hook, slice through your fingers if it can and most importantly, will give you theee neatest edge to your deer hair you have ever seen. Only problem is it will leave no trace of a wing or head.
the moral?? pull carefully!!
Peter
Drumgerry
"The hair doesn't go underneath the hook but out to the sides and in a wid-ish fan from top to bottom - not the lovely compact wing shown in your photo!"
Like I said, don't worry about that. Just make sure it's all tied down nice and tight. You can trim the hair at the edges to get the body to sit flat in the surface. Just snip the side hair at the head. A bit of a wide fan is OK anyway, and in a big wave will help support the fly.
Don't worry too much about appearance. As long as the fly stays together for a few fish. Hell, I even tie the things with rubber legs!
Swithun,
You haven't been listening carefully enough. :D
I'm not changing my mind, the pinch IS important. So is the right amount of hair, too much and it slips all over the place. What's the point of a really thick wing? A sparse DH Sedge isn't a bad thing and I tie lots of them skinny too. Remember, we always have Gink to keep them floating.
Look at that photo. That's about the right amount.
Bob,
did you tie these flies in the photos or was it Hans?
Those are my ties Fred. Hans takes the pix. He's good, huh?
OK I tied a few tonight and I would say that they are on the skinny side. Probably a little less hair than the wing in the photo. A bit of judicious trimming certainly helped the wing profile but it remains to be seen whether my versions will do the business for me. Next time I'm out they'll be getting a test drive so I'll maybe post back with any results - ie fish caught, whether they floated or sank and anything else which might or might not be relevant.
Thanks for all the great info guys - this thread rocks!
Cheers
Gerry
Don't you worry Gerry, they'll do great. It's a bit early for the big claret DH Sedge on the lochs right now, but if you are going to fish the rivers, a skinny one in a size 14 with a hare's ear body will do fine in an olive hatch.
In June and July, though, it willserve you well on the northern lochs.
Bob
Quote from: Bob WyattThose are my ties Fred. Hans takes the pix. He's good, huh?
Yes, the flies and the photos are great. Indoor "still life" photos are among the most difficult to get right. I was always impressed with the quality of the tackle photos Magnus takes for FF+FT. He told me how he does it, uses reflectors and stuff like that. I suppose it's like everything, results reflect attention to detail and preparation.
On the DHE in the photo - is that hare mask dyed or is it natural? It looks much darker than the stuff I have
Fred,
The hare's mask is natural. I get a lot of it in New Zealand. The place is hoaching with them. They are considered vermin and shot on sight, so there are a lot of hare's masks lying about. I take the best fur off the masks, all the nice dark spiky stuff.
When I get a lot of it I blend it in a coffee grinder.
OK Bob here's one for you!! Which of your flies do you think deserves a season long spot on the cast?? Thanks for the info about the DHS being better for later on. Would the DHE be a better bet at this time of year?
Last night I was looking through "Trout Hunting" and especially at the pictures of the flies. Fred's right to say they are fantastic images - and a real help when tying. For the first time I noticed your DHE tied with stripped quill. And having some dyed peacock eyes (from Dave Downie) I tied a few in his vintage claret shade. And then gave the quill a coating or three with Hard as Nails. For the first time I got the wing what to me looks like spot on - the right quantity of deer hair in the right proportion :D . It was a wee experiment but I wonder if it might work. Whaddya think?
Cheers
Gerry
Gerry,
I like the DHE and Dirty Duster for the early season, but a sparsely tied DHS will do the business as well for the olive hatches.
A small DHE is very good for the grannom hatch, just tie it with a nice dark hare abdomen.
The stripped quill body will definitely work, and is a decent buzzer pattern, but I prefer the hare's mask bodies to stripped quill for olive hatches, nice and buggy.
(http://wildfisher.co.uk/uploads/deerhairsedge-2006Mar291143615339.jpg)
DH Sedge (photo Hans Weilenmann)
http://www.danica.com/flytier/
Thanks again Bob and now Allan (there's a Dynaking with your name on it (for as long as the demo takes anyway!) if you're ever down by Tamdhu).
Moving on now to the Dirty Duster - I think that's a fairly easy tie and certainly easier than the DHE and DHS. I've tied one just now with Hare's Mask and Grizzle hackle. My question is about the clipping of the hackle - do you clip it straight across to leave the hackle in a horizontal plane either side of the hook if you know what I mean. Or do you extend the cutting upwards to give a wedge shaped hackle? And I also wanted to ask if it'd be worth extending the principal to tying a few with some of the nice grizzle hackles I have dyed in various shades of olive?
It's not often you get a chance to quiz the originators of patterns about the finer points so this is great!
Cheers
Gerry
Gerry,
Good questions. You're on the right track there, definitely. It's finer points like that make all the difference.
(http://wildfisher.co.uk/uploads/Wyatts-Dirty-Duster-2006Mar301143750610.jpg)
Dirty Duster (photo Hans Weilenmann)
http://www.danica.com/flytier/
I do both. I clip the DD straight across, so the hackle sticks out to the side to make it ride higher (for fast water), and I also trim it as you say for a deeper 'hang', like the DHE.
The DD was originally meant as a 'DHE for Dummies', although I always think the DHE is dumb enough. The D Duster is much easier and faster to tie, and it's become a real favourite among some of my pals. I think Allan Liddle ties an olive version that he vouches for.
I tie it in Blue Dun and Grizzly as well. The badger is my all time favourite though - I like the visual density of the black centre of the badger, and its 'halo' of transparent hackle.
It makes a good emerging buzzer in small sizes too, and a good variant is a black ostrich herl body with the silver badger hackle.
Cheers,
Bob
Great stuff again Bob.
I think I'm one of the "dummies" in the "...for dummies" category!
One last question re the DD - do you build up a wee thorax before winding the hackle through it? Or is the clipping of the hackle enough to give a suggestion of a thorax do you think?
Cheers
Gerry
Gerry, you're right on the money tonight! On my hackle spinners I build up a slight thorax and wind the hackle through it.
On the DD the black centre stripe is plenty. I sometimes think it makes a good focus point for the trout, like the black thorax on the Klinker.
I try to keep the flies as simple and easy to tie as possible.
Hi Bob
I've a query about the wing on the DHE - is it flared or tied as a post?
Someone on the 'other' forum was complaining that their tyings always sunk, I suggested they tie it with a wider,almost comparadun-style wing, as I do, but another poster was sure it was tied as a post.
All the pictures I've seen are taken from the side, making it difficult to tell either way.
As for the sedge, I tie shit loads of these for our trips up north every year, can knock them out in no time using this method;
Align the wing, then tie in position using increasing pressure with every turn while - this is the important bit - holding the tips in your non-winding hand AT ALL TIMES. Wind tightly through the flared butts then, with the thread dangling, trim them very roughly.
Take care not to cut the thread (duh!).
This keeps the wing and butts seperated. Now you can let the wing go and simply whip finish and get to work trimming.
Takes about one minute per fly. And what a fly it is, too.
Maybe see you guys at the Alt this year?We're going up on the 24th June, staying at a cottage nearby. You might remember us as the dishevelled, hungover trio dossing in tents and Eric's wee caravan round the back of the pub a couple of years ago.
Cheers,
Dave
Dave,
You explain it very clearly. That's precisely the way I wing the sedge myself.
As for the DHE, I tie it both 'semi'-Comparadun style and as a narrow upright wing. I wouldn't describe it as a post exactly. It's always flared a bit.
I've heard a lot of guys complain about the DHE 'sinking'. It's supposed to sink, but not completely out of sight. That's why they made gink, by the way.
The narrower upright wing (or 'post' style) will ride lower in the water, like a floating nymph. I just use gink on the wing to keep it up.
A flared Comparadun style wing is good for fast broken water, as far as the angler seeing it goes, but I use the narrower wing a lot even in the riffles. You soon 'get your eye' in as to where the fly is, even if it isn't bouncing around out there like a Royal Wulff. The trout see it just fine. Which is kind of the point.
If you put a little gink on the top of the thorax it will ride a bit higher, like in Hans' photo here. But never get any gink on the abdomen.
(http://wildfisher.co.uk/uploads/DHEfloatsharp-2006Mar311143786164.jpg)
DHE Floating (photo Hans Weilenmann)
http://www.danica.com/flytier/
Bob
Guys,
You know, I think this is a good place to mention one of, and maybe the earliest, designers of flies specifically meant to represent the emerging dun - Old W H Lawrie, another great Scot from Edinburgh, or thereabouts, who wrote some of the best books on the subject.
He developed a whole string of great emergers before they were called emergers, back before WW2. He called them 'Hatching Duns'. Some rather strong attitudes toward both the wet fly and the dry fly, both north and south of the border, kept his ideas from really catching on in this country until the same sort of thing 'emerged' n the States, much later on. Now, of course, it's emerger city.
Mottram had a few ideas too, but recanted in favour of the Halfordian code in the end.
Skues was thinking along these lines too, but old Lawrie was the guy who made a fist of it.
He's the man, aye.
Allan,
I checked out your fly box there. Good flies, all of them. I like your skinny DD. Definitely looks the business.
You tie the DHE with a slightly more forward leaning wing than I do, which would make it hang deeper, I think. I usually build up a bit more of a hare's mask thorax and the wing sits up a bit higher. Personal preference that probably makes not much difference to the trout. :wink:
Spiders and nymphs.
I reckon the Scottish tradition of fishing the wet fly probably kept the emerger from taking hold here for so long. However, I think old W C Stewart was actually fishing the wet spider as an emerger a lot of the time, so it's really a matter of giving it a name.
Looks absolutely deadly Allan.
Quote from: Allan LiddleI've suspected for a long time that those spider type dries (the one's without tails) fished exactly like an emerger
I have wondered about that too. As a laddie, I often doubted these dry spiders flies would fish "properly" as I defined it then. The stiffness of the nylon must affect it though I would have thought.
Fred,
For sure. In fact the great old tail-less Grey Duster is one of the first and best, although no one seemed to know why for a long time. Courtney Williams, in A Dictionary of Trout Flies, puzzles over the Grey Duster back in 1949. He reckoned the GD was probably the best fly you could use in a hatch of Mayfly, but couldn't say why.
The answer, as Allan says, is the way the Grey Duster sits in the surface film - arse down, hanging there like an emerging nymph. That's why it's a mistake to put a tail on a Grey Duster. The original has no tail, and the original is still the best.
The simple idea behind the Dirty Duster was just to accentuate that feature - get down and dirty with it. :wink:
Bob, how much do you reckon the stiffness of the nylon affects the presentation of these flies? Without doing experiments, just can't get my head round this.
Fred,
It probably has some effect, but unless the nylon is very thick when it's wet it probably doesn't matter that much. Trout tippets are pretty thin stuff and when wet are quite limp, or should be. Stiff nylon's worst effect is drag.
Some attention to knotting is worth the effort. A bad knot that kicks the fly at an angle is more important than the nylon, to my mind. Trout don't know what nylon is, and if the fly is drifting or swimming naturally it'll catch 'em.
Think about how many fish we get on those droppers. Knots and doubled line all over the shop.
For very small flies the thickness of the tippet is an issue, of course, but the reasons are the same.
I use the half-grinner, or so-called 'uni' knot myself. Two turns. I always make sure the fly is straight in line, and I use the thinnest but strongest limp mono I can get away with, usually 5 or 6 pound test for trout. Frog Hair is good, but there are plenty of others. Stroft is reckoned to be good and I'm going to try it.
Yes, I have just been sitting here tying flies onto nylon and really watching the angle it comes off (how sad is that? :lol: ).This is something that probably makes a bigger difference than the nylon itself.
Attention to detail I suppose.
Yup, life is in the details, Fred.
Ardbeg,
The turle is OK but really a knot for gut. The simple 'uni' is faster and in my opinion better for knot strength and being in line with the hook shank.
Allan, the half-blood or clinch is probably the most widely used of all knots, but co-poly will pig-tail if not tucked. Not as neat as the 'uni'.
What's the smallest practical hook size to tie these flies (DHE +DHS) on?
Fred,
I tie te DHE down to 16 on a Kamasan B100. I use snowshoe foot hair for it about as much as deer hair. The deerhair makes for a skinnier tie, which can make a difference sometimes.
The Dirty Duster can go down as small as you can make it, but I never go smaller than a 16 with it.
The DH Sedge is good in a 16 as well, on regular dry fly hooks, and is much easier to tie than either of the above in small sizes. I use this size quite a bit in Canada and NZ.
Rather than tie chunky little flies in size 18 or 20, I just use skinny ones in 16.
This all sets me thinking. As a youngster on our local club water (Lunan) I used to do OK when olives and stuff were on the go in spring, but in low water on summer's evenings never did have much luck until I stated using small flies (20's and 22's). All they were was a few turns of dirty white thread and a badger hackle. No tail. I'll bet these were fishing ? sunk. They were so small I was just guessing where they were ? the time. Never did consider that, all I knew was I was catching fish. That's the beauty of forums, can make you stop and think about what others are saying and relate it to your own experiences
Swithun,
What you say is generally true. The angle the fly takes is not critical, just how deep the body penetrates the surface. This isn't because the trout will only take a fly with that posture, but more to do with how deep the fish is holding and how far off it sees the fly coming in it's perceptual window.
I think that body profile is the main trigger to a response. The sunk abdomen is seen from a considerable distance, whereas a high riding dry, sitting up on its hackles and tail, is usually just a surface disturbance (footprint). I just don't believe in the idea that trout 'select' high riding duns over struggling and stuck emerging duns, so there is no good reason to tie them, in my view.
Even more important, the trout notices the sunk body from further away and focuses on it. They are so single minded that once they see such a target they stay locked on to it, if they are in feeding mode. If you don't make the fly behave in a way that puts the trout off, it will get eaten. I believe it's the reason that they take our flies when there appears to be perfectly good real ones out there at the same time. They get noticed, because they stand out just a bit more while still remaining 'in context'.
Uncleboo,
My best caenis hatch fly is a skinny hare's ear spider, or hare body DH Sedge in #14, or even a 12. The thing is for the trout to see the damn thing among all those flies on the water. Again, it's an emerger that the trout are eating, not the little duns that cover you while you're fishing. :)
Well, I do occasionally think of other things :D, but because I use them for pretty well most of my fishing and I keep being asked questions about them, they do tend to show up in my articles. They'll show up again in the next couple too, since the season for them is almost upon us. When it gets boring let me know.
The important thing is that the specifics of fly pattern just aren't really that important. The bugs that trout eat look pretty much the same, and the natural emergers are a bloody mess. The fine details of tying don't matter much, to me at any rate - except that the flies have a good stimulating shape and they stay together. There are lots of good flies out there. The ones I use are just simpler to tie than most, and I try to make them rugged.
The small differences you are talking about are just that, the main thing is to get the body down in the surface and let the trout see it. A flared wing on the Sedge for fast water is good, but a high riding fly is only important to the angler, so he can see it. If it worked in Norway I'm not surprised, but I don't think it would have worked any better than a low rider. And I'd put my money on the sunk body every time. :)
Allan and I were discussing the original dressing for the Veyatie Black (on Allan's fleebox thread), and I thought I'd post it here in case anyone is interested.
Veyatie Black
Tail: whole golden Pheasant crest (quite long)
Body: Black seal's fur, with a pinch of claret if desired (the early version used ostrich herl)
Body Hackle: Badger saddle
Rib: silver wire. Trap the body hackle with the rib - bumble style.
Shoulder Hackle: Hen pheasant wing covert feather, folded and wound by the tip. (strip the aftershaft fluff and use the stalk as a handle)
(http://wildfisher.co.uk/uploads/veyatie_black-2006Apr051144263286.jpg)
Hans Weilenmann photo
http://www.danica.com/flytier/
The Veyatie Silver just has a tinsel body and a golden GP crest tail. The red tailed (sea-trout) version we call the Smithy.
Smithy
Tail: whole dyed red GP crest
Body: Flat silver tinsel
Body Hackle: Badger
Rib: silver wire
Shoulder hackle: Hen pheasant wing covert, doubled and wound by tip.
(http://wildfisher.co.uk/uploads/smithy-2006Apr051144263302.jpg)
Hans Weilenmann photo
http://www.danica.com/flytier/
That's it Boo, the Black on an overcast day, and the silver in bright conditions. In the old days I'd use both on the cast and it was interesting observing how the fish reacted. One day, about fifteen years ago on Fionn, I was in the middle of a great mayfly hatch. The day was warm and overcast and the fly were emerging all over the place. I was nailing them on every cast on the VB, then the sky cleared in the afternoon, and by tea time was clear, bright and warm. The fish started taking the silver on the point, and not exactly ignoring the black but takes were two to one to the silver. Caught over seventy trout that day, not counting the sprats. Wild.
A couple years later on a very bright day with a good breeze, nothing rising but the fish were nailing the silver point fly again, and for some reason a highlander green seal's fur DH Sedge on the bob. I didn't start catching fish until I changed to the green sedge and the Veyatie Silver. Later that day, in the early evening, the sun was low and went really brassy, and the NW wind started to howl so hard I had to slam the flies onto the water, the fish were absolutely murdering the dark claret DHS. The flies were skating in the wind and being blown clean off. Fishing the lee shore, almost impossible to keep the line on the water. Good pound fish too, a lot of them. I reckon it was the high contrast fly gave them something to see in all that commotion.
So, I don't rule out the effects of colour, but hate wasting time changing flies, so these days mostly stick with a hare's ear DHS on a bright day, dark claret in low light.
Bob,
when you say
"Shoulder hackle: Hen pheasant wing covert, doubled and wound by tip."
I take it by that you mean use two hen pheasant wing coverts and wind them at the same time?
Fred,
No. I mean folding the feather so it winds more easily.
I do that after I tie in the tip. First, I stroke the fibers so they stick straight out form the stalk, then tie it in by the tip. I then fold the feather so all the fibers are on one side of the stalk. The tip section of these covert feathers is quite thin and fragile, so while it winds easily, you can snap the tip if you aren't careful.
One turn of the folded hackle is enough. Keep it sparse.
I give the base of the hackle a good soak of varnish. Better yet is to take a couple of winds of the thread back and forth through the hackle to really strap it down. Then this fly is pretty much bullet proof.
OK Bob, thanks, that's a good tip (probably for all game 'hackles'). I would have thought the herls would just bounce back into their original position when you let them go, but obviously they don't
They bounce back a bit, Fred, but relax into a bit of a 'vee' so you can wind them on easily.
Some tiers prefer to tie in by the butt of the feather, but I find tying by the tip a lot easier. And you can use the shorter fibres near the tip, too.
Yeah, I tied up a load of north country spiders a few weeks back and tied the soft game hackles in by the tip. Never thought about doubling though. They do break easily when tied that way but then if tied by the stalk, the hackle pliers can tear the tip…….so it's no win. But I agree tying by the tip is far better for the reasons of fibre length you mention. Makes a far neater fly.
I'm a big fan of the Dirty Duster. Not because it is easier to tie than the DHE, but because for me it has been more effective.
This year I am looking forward to trying a variation. Really it is a combination of the DD and the striped quill DHE mentioned in previous posts. I am just going to use quill for the body on the DD.
I have been inspired to do this by an old pattern in a Tom Stewart book. The pattern was simply called the Badger. I'm going to get rid of the tail, and tie it on curved hooks to sink that abdomen. Maybe throw in a few different dyed quill variations.
Has anyone tried this already?