Aniline dyes for feathers

[Black-Don]

Does anyone know about these and where to get them without buying a proprietory dye such as Veniards ?

[Traditionalist]

Dyeing is a huge subject.  You can use a host of various dyes for colouring fly-dressing materials, all depends on what you wish to achieve.  If you just want to try various acid dyes then these are good;

http://www.dharmatrading.com/html/eng/1344-AA.shtml?lnav=dyes.html

All such dyes are "proprietary" it is not possible for amateurs to produce aniline and many other dyes themselves.  Natural dyes are not too difficult to produce and results can be very good.

TL
MC

[Traditionalist]

May be of interest to you;

http://www.wildfisher.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=17023.0

TL
MC

[Fishtales]

This is a good site if you are making your own natural dyes.

http://www.pioneerthinking.com/naturaldyes.html

[Black-Don]

That's excellent Mike, any idea how many capes you can do with a 15g tub of the Veniards powder ? I had seen this on various sites for about £6 a tub but thought it was maybe expensive as I didn't know how many capes you could do but reading your link I may have thought wrong !

This is a good site if you are making your own natural dyes.

http://www.pioneerthinking.com/naturaldyes.html

Another great link Sandy, plenty of info there for a bit of wild foraging over the coming months 

[Traditionalist]

That's excellent Mike, any idea how many capes you can do with a 15g tub of the Veniards powder ? I had seen this on various sites for about £6 a tub but thought it was maybe expensive as I didn't know how many capes you could do but reading your link I may have thought wrong !

Another great link Sandy, plenty of info there for a bit of wild foraging over the coming months  

Unfortunately that question is more or less impossible to answer, there are too many variables involved.  The amount of dye required to dye a cape, ( or anything else for that matter), the exact "normal" shade of a dye is dependent on the dry weight of the material to be dyed,the colour and type of dye, and the material involved. Veniards dyes are "combination" dyes.

The "normal" shade of a dye is that shade which produces the colour for which the dye is designed. Using less dye produces a lighter shade, using more dye is usually just a waste of dye but in come cases can produce a somewhat deeper shade.  

Although actually dyeing is relatively easy once you know exactly how to do it, the theory and calculations involved for a lot of things are exceptionally complex. Achieving consistent good results with small quantities of fly-dressing material is basically a matter of trial and error and taking very careful notes.

Here is an old article of mine on the general subject of dyeing; ( Deferred to next post)

and here is a very good "step by step" for dyeing a saddle which will work well with any acid dye;

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/radbard88/

TL
MC

[Traditionalist]

There are numerous methods of dyeing, and types of dye. In America, some people use things like soft drink powders “kool aid" and the like. The consumers of such must have cast iron stomachs!, and there are dyes like "Rit", "Dylon" and many others. For quite a while I experimented with various plant extracts, and a host of other things, and it was a lot of fun. Of course, I have not tried them all. Some may work, many will not, or not reliably. If you want consistent results, and purely as a means of making your materials more useful and valuable, then I would personally advise you sticking to Veniards dyes to begin with.  Jacquard acid dyes are also very good.

One last little trick here, which may be of use to you even if you don´t want to dye your own materials. If you buy material, and the dye comes off when you spit on your finger and rub it, then it is useless for fly-dressing in that condition. Of course you could send it back to the supplier, if that is possible, but if you are obliged or want to keep it, and like the colour, then drop it into a pan of not quite boiling water with three tablespoons of vinegar per litre added. This will "fix" most dyes.  Afterwards simply rinse it and dry it as described above!

Mallard and similar water bird feathers are also quite straightforward as long as you degrease them thoroughly. I would recommend you remove the "fluff" from the base of the feathers as it is useless, and merely soaks up a lot of dye. To degrease water bird feathers, which are covered in preen oil, wash in hand hot water with a generous dash of Fairy liquid. Agitate the feathers a few times, and let them soak for a while. ten minutes will normally suffice. Rinse thoroughly.

Immediately before dyeing place the feathers in very hot ( but not boiling!) water. ( this is only done to get the feathers up to temperature. Otherwise they will cool the bath too much). Then transfer to the dye bath. The dye bath should be just below boiling point. The dye should take almost immediately.

It is IMPERATIVE!!!!!!! that all the material you wish to dye be placed in the bath simultaneously. You CAN NOT dye things the same colour one after another. Each piece of material you dye exhausts the bath to some extent. If you try to dye things "one after another" in the same bath, the dye shade becomes progressively lighter with each piece of material you dye.

There are formulas for calculating the amount of dye required for a specific dry weight of material to be dyed, but you don´t really need them for dyeing a few feathers. It is also essential that the feathers do not touch the sides of the dye vessel! This will cause them to curl or burn! That is why you need a steel colander or sieve. There are very many misconceptions about dyeing. Material which is dyed, actually takes on the dye itself, which when properly done, chemically bonds to the material, also making it colour fast. The liquid in which the dye and the material is placed, is merely a transport medium to ensure even dyeing.

If you have the right amount of dye in the bath for the amount of material you are dyeing, then the bath will clear almost completely, and look like clear water. Dye is not like ink or paint. If you put too much material in the bath, then you will get a lighter shade, because the dye is distributed evenly among the material in the bath. Using more dye of a particular colour, for material of a certain dry weight, will not give you a darker shade! Using less dye than would normally be required will however give you a lighter shade. I know people continually write to the contrary, but that is simply because they do not understand the process.

If you have a crimson dye, and you use the right amount of that dye to dye a white cape. Then you will get a crimson cape. Regardless of how much dye you add, the cape will still be crimson. The extra dye you added is merely wasted . If you use the same crimson dye, and use only half the amount which would normally be required to dye a white cape crimson, then it will turn out a different shade. Usually a lighter shade of red, but also maybe even pink or light orange. The dye used is related to the dry weight of the material you wish to dye, and is independent of the water in the dye bath. The dye actually leaves the water, and bonds to the material. If the dye bath is still bright crimson after you have finished dyeing something, then either the dye has not "taken" properly, or you have used far too much dye.


Dyeing is a vast and extremely complex subject.  Such knowledge is not essential for dyeing up most fly-dressing materials, but it can be useful, especially for special cases. Some special natural dyes are still used for dyeing some materials, as the shade depth and lustre is unmatched for some purposes. However, this is best left to professionals in most cases.

Here is a very basic overview of dyes in common use.

Organic dyes
The first man-made organic dye, mauveine, was discovered by William Henry Perkin in 1856. Many thousands of dyes have since been prepared. Synthetic dyes quickly replaced just about all the traditional natural dyes. They cost less, they offer a vast range of new colours, and they impart improved properties to the dyed materials.

Most dyes are now classified according to how they are used in the dyeing process.

Acid dyes are water-soluble anionic dyes that are used on fibres such as silk, wool, nylon, various other natural materials, and modified acrylic fibres ,by the use of neutral to acid dye-baths. Fibre attachment is attributed, at least in part, to the formation of salt between anionic groups in the dyes and cationic groups in the fibres. Acid dyes are not substantive to cellulose type fibres.

Basic dyes are water-soluble cationic dyes that are used mainly on acrylic fibres, but are also occasionally used for wool. silk, and some other natural materials. As a rule, acetic acid is added to the dye-bath to assist the dye uptake of the fibre Basic dyes are also used to colour paper.

Direct or substantive dyeing is normally carried out in a neutral or slightly alkaline dye-bath, at or near boiling point, and using sodium chloride (NaCl) or sodium sulfate (Na2SO4). Direct dyes are mainly used on cotton, paper, leather, wool, silk and nylon. These dyes are also often used as pH indicators and as biological stains.

Mordant dyes require a mordant, which is a substance that improves the fastness of the dye against water, light and perspiration. Mordant choice is extremely important as various mordants can change the final colour very significantly.

Most natural dyes are mordant dyes, and there is quite a lot of literature extant describing properties and techniques to be used with these dyes. Synthetic mordant dyes , or chrome dyes are the most important, mainly used for wool. About a third of the dyes used for wool are synthetic mordant dyes and are especially used for black and dark blue shades. In these cases, the mordant, potassium dichromate, is applied as an after-treatment.

Vat dyes are basically insoluble in water and not capable of dyeing fibres directly. However, reducing them in alkaline liquor produces the water soluble alkali metal salt of the dye, which, in this so called "leuco" form, has an affinity for the fibre. Subsequent oxidation reforms the original insoluble dye.

Reactive dyes rely on a chromophore containing a substituent that reacts directly with the fibre substrate. The covalent bonds that attach reactive dye to natural fibres make it one of the most permanent dyes. "Cold" reactive dyes, such as Procion MX, Cibacron F, and Drimarene K, are easy to use as the dye may be applied at room temperature. Reactive dye is the best choice for dyeing cotton, cellulose fibres, and is also extremely useful for dyeing sensitive natural materials such as Polar Bear, Arctic fox, and some others. Hot dyes damage these furs, making them more or less unusable for some purposes, fly-dressing included!

Dispersal dyes were developed for dyeing cellulose acetate, and are also essentially water insoluble. These dyes are ground to fine powder in a dispersing agent and then sold either as a paste, or spray-dried, and sold as a powder. These dyes may be used to dye nylon, triacetate, polyester and acrylic fibres. For some of these things a dyeing temperature of 130°C is necessary, and a pressurized dye bath is used. Extremely fine particle size gives a large surface area, aiding uptake by the fibre. Dyeing rates are significantly influenced by the choice of dispersing agent used during the grinding.

Azo dyeing is a technique whereby insoluble azoic dye is produced directly on or within the fibre. This is done by treating a fibre with diazoic and coupling components. Under suitable dyebath conditions the two components react and produce the desired insoluble azo dye. This dyeing technique is unique, because the final colour is controlled by the choice of the diazoic and coupling components.

One other class which describes the application role of dyes, and not their mode of use, is food dye. Food dyes are classed as food additives, they are manufactured to a higher standard than most industrial dyes. Food dyes may be direct, mordant or vat dyes, and their use is usually strictly controlled by legislation. Many of these dyes are azoic dyes, although anthraquinone and triphenylmethane compounds are used for colours such as green and blue. Some natural dyes are also used.

A number of other dye classes have also been established, including:

Sulphur Dyes for textiles
Carbene dyes for colouring multiple substrates
Oxidation bases, for mainly hair and fur
Leather dyes, for leather
Fluorescent brighteners, for textile fibres and paper
Solvent dyes, for wood staining and producing coloured lacquers, solvent inks, colouring oils, waxes.

Only a few of these are suitable for use by amateurs. Even many natural dyes use extremely poisonous and dangerous materials, and require care in use. For many sensitive materials, "cold" reactive dyes are now being used more and more. They still depend on the correct dye-bath temperature, but this is usually somewhere around 30°C, and does not present as many problems as dye baths used near or above boiling point.

Furthermore, and this will doubtless cause some controversy, some dyes in regular use are less suitable than many people imagine. RIT dye is NOT suitbale for dyeing most natural materials!

I know Mr.Best recommends it, but it is not a good choice. You need to use a lot of dye, and RIT is also a so called "union" or "combination" dye which may be used on various things like proteins and cellulose, nylon, polypropylene and polyester, because it contains several different types of dye. Normally, it will also not give the bright vibrant colours fly-dressers are looking for.

Veniard ´s dye also has a number of quite severe limitations! With few exceptions, namely hot orange, lemon yellow, scarlet, and kingfisher blue, all Veniard ´s dyes are mixed colour ( combination) dyes.This causes problems with colour consistency between batches, as even if you weigh the dye powder very accurately indeed, the dye colour powder is not a homogenous mixture, and even vigorous mixing or shaking will not make it so, because the specific gravities of the various dye colours vary, and the heavier colours will sink to the bottom of the mixing vessel when stirred or shaken. Veniard´s also uses different acid dyes to obtain some colours, and to suit various materials, and these differ in molecular structure, causing varying dye rates. This can cause a number of problems!

For some materials, hot acid dyes are completely unsuitable. At the temperature required for the dye to take, Polar bear fur for instance is burned, and it loses its tips, making it useless for fly-dressing! As already stated elsewhere, prolonging the time in the bath will not make any appreciable difference to the final shade of any material. The temperature is critical. Adding more dye is also useless and will only be washed out when rinsing anyway, as it has not "taken". The temperature is absolutely critical for hot aniline dyes. Unless you reach the required temperature the dyes simply will not take properly. It does not matter what anybody else says, this is a simple fact.

When you reach the required temperature, ( which varies somewhat according to the dye bath and the materials being dyed), the dye "takes" immediately, and the dye bath clears almost as if by magic. Unless this occurs, the dye has not "taken", the colour will not be "fast", and a lot of dye will simply be rinsed out when the material is rinsed. Sorry to keep repeating this, but it is the single major cause of failure by beginners.

Some feathers and hairs curl badly, or the tips are damaged, at close to the "taking temperature" of the dye. Â When hot dyeing, the material must not be allowed to touch the sides of the dye-bath anyway, and should be constantly agitated, as long as heat is being applied. Best to withdraw the heat shortly before the material is placed in the bath. Rinse the material ( which should be clean, grease free, and completely soaked) in very hot water before placing in the dye bath. This prevents the bath cooling too much, which will prevent the dye from taking properly.

For dyeing Polar Bear, ( which I have done quite a few times now), cold reactive dyes like these, or similar are best;

http://www.dyeproservices.com/Dylon%20Cold%20Water%20Dye.htm

The following is a patch of Polar bear dyed using "Primrose" from the above list of cold dyes;



I just scanned the patch, so the photo quality is not brilliant, but enough to give you the idea I hope).

These dyes are not cheap ( although this is mainly due to the minimum quantities you have to buy, in use they are in fact cheaper than hot aniline dyes), but they give absolutely first class results, and without the danger of damaging sensitive materials due to heat.  The skin of such patches also remains soft, ( if it was previously tanned).  Stiff hard skin, which results from hot dyeing, can cause problems and wastage. This is very useful when selecting hair. There are also various suppliers of cold reactive dyes which sell smaller amounts. The dyes work well on all the natural materials I have dyed, and in most cases are better than any of the hot dyes. Most especially in regard to colour solidity and brilliance.  This is most important on Polar bear, and a few other things. The "glassy" natural sheen of hackle, fur etc is retained. This is apparently a big big secret by the way!  Quite a few commercial suppliers use these dyes for their top quality materials.

By the way, a pot of the above mentioned dye is sufficient to process a very great deal of fly-dressing material. Far more than an individual is ever likely to need. 5ml of dye powder will dye ca. 500 gms of dry material. This depends a little on colour and shade depth required. When giving one of my flydressing classes, quite a while ago now, I formed a "dye club". 12 of us got together, and ordered the colours  we wanted in 250 ml pots. I then weighed out 20 gm portions of each pot into smaller pots, and distributed them to the participants. This meant we all got a very good range and quantity of colours ( 12 each * 20gm), for about 80 dollars each. For a further few dollars we got the fixative etc as well.

There is no point in buying such a large pot of the stuff just to dye a few hair patches. Unless of course you want to dye a number of materials in the same colour, or you have particularly valuable materials, which you do not want to hot dye. Or you want to dye a patch of Polar bear hair and a hundred T-shirts! Buying such pots is otherwise really only viable for a tackle shop or similar, which produces their own material.

There is a great deal of bullshit talked and written about dyeing, and I can only assume that this is mainly done by people who just don´t know what they are talking about, and have presumably never done it.

Hot dyes require a certain temperature before they "Take" properly.  If you do not reach this temperature, which can vary, but is usually very slightly under the boiling point of the dye, ( which is higher than the boiling point of water! !!!!!, as the dye and the acid etc increase the boiling point. Just like adding salt to water will increase the boiling point! !!) then it makes no difference how long you have the materials in the bath, how much mordant, vinegar, donkey piss, maiden´s water, hairs from Lefty´s  testicles, or fine old brandy you put in there,

UNLESS YOU REACH THE REQUIRED TEMPERATURE THE Â DYE WILL NOT TAKE!

This is a simple fact. Take it or leave it. I am not going to argue about it, and I don´t mind at all whether anybody follows my instructions or not, it is not my material which will be ruined! In many cases, these temperatures will burn or otherwise damage some materials anyway unless very great care is taken, and sometimes even then.

THE COLD DYES MENTIONED AVOID THESE PROBLEMS COMPLETELY.

If you want hard, fast, bright, colours using hot dyes, then you must attain the right temperature in the dye bath. This may be deleterious to some materials, even when done carefully. The dyes referred to here are COLD WATER DYES, so there is no point in boiling them. I have no idea what would happen if you boil them, I have never done it. This would be an exercise in futility, and I see no point in such exercises. Maybe it will blow your house up?

You must follow the instructions which come with the dyes.  Read the website I noted with regard to fixative etc etc. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING AS hot aniline dyes, or indeed any other dyes, and do not work on the same principles.

Further points of note;

The cold dyes mentioned can be mixed much like paints. Mixing blue and yellow will give green for instance. You need experience before you try this on valuable materials. It is possible to mix virtually any colour or shade from a set of basic colours. But it is not necessarily easy! If in doubt, use  an artists colour wheel. Some colour combinations are not obvious. Also, the strength of the dye bath influences the depth and shade of the colour. The strength of the required dye bath is dependent on the dry weight of the material! This also depends on the shade you want!

It is only sensible to mix dyes in the water by adding the dye powder as required and mixing carefully. Mixing the powder itself to obtain colour blends on such a small scale is impossible, as there is no way you could weigh or otherwise measure the amounts required accurately. When attempting to produce certain colours and shades, or reproduce some you may already have discovered, then you must be very clean and very accurate in your measurements. When using small scale dye baths of a litre or so, it is quite impossible to weigh the amounts of dye powder required to produce some shades etc. Â This is a matter of experience. It is more of an art than a science.

You can usually get excellent results if you make careful notes, and observe all necessary procedures. Use distilled water for the dye bath. Avoid metals, use plastic or stainless steel measuring spoons etc, and clean them carefully after use. A stainless steel or glass laboratory spatula is useful for "measuring" "pinches" of dye powder. The "pinches" should of course be the same size! Always use the same amounts of water. use the amounts of salt and fixative recommended for the dry weight of the material you wish to dye.  If you want darker shades, remove the material from the bath, add material as required, and dye again.

REMEMBER !!!!   Any given material will only accept a certain amount of dye. Using more is simply wasteful, and will not affect results.

USING LESS DYE, will affect results. It will affect the shade and intensity of the colour.

If you ruin twenty Polar bear pelts IT IS YOUR OWN FAULT! It has nothing at all to do with me. Anything you read on here, you attempt at your own peril!

I don´t have the slightest idea how toxic some of these things might be, ( which is not quite true, but for the purposes of this article, let us assume so.) However, if you drink the stuff, sprinkle it in your Irish Stew, or have a bath in it, then this is not likely to prove beneficial to your health. You may also end up crapping all the colours of the rainbow for a while, and need very strong bleach to clean the toilet.

There is a simple way of testing all these things. Just try them for yourself. I dont sell anything at all. No dyes, no flies, no rods, nothing, nada, zilch.  I have no commercial connections of any description whatsoever. I am a retired engineer. Thank you for your cooperation, you may now loosen your seatbelts and smoke if you wish, we will be returning to normal operation as quickly as possible.

Another matter in relation to the use of these dyes, which might prove of some interest. A friend of mine asked me to dye an Icelandic sheep skin for him. I dont like the stuff myself, and don´t use it any more, but I once dyed quite a lot of it, as did various pupils of mine at fly-dressing classes. This was something I always fancied doing, merely because of the scale of the matter, and I decided to do it in my washing machine. Very carefully I followed all the instructions. Set the required program on the machine, added all the necessary materials, and then sat watching avidly as the fleece flopped around in the machine for about forty minutes, going through the program I had chosen. The program duly completed, and I pumped the machine empty, without spin drying, and removed the fleece from the machine. It was a most beautiful deep glowing pink. Emboldened by this excellent result,  I chucked it in the tumble dryer, added a few drops of hair conditioner, and sat watching it until the program completed.

Wonderful!  Marvellous! Brilliant, etc etc , were the comments I then received from my friend when he came around to collect the skin a couple of hours later. He was particularly enthusiastic about the thick mat of dubbing I had scraped off the dryer sieve, although personally I can think of no really good use for a pound of bright fluorescent pink dubbing. Several thousand pink shrimps perhaps? Whatever, the experiment was a resounding success, and I was very pleased with myself, and of course immediately contemplating other possibilities.

Two days later, I was obliged in the normal course of events, to do my weekly washing.  As is my wont, I bunged two weeks worth of my underwear in the machine, along with some new stuff I had bought, set it up, and let it go. Now, my question here is, and notwithstanding the fact that I don´t normally sell anything at all; Would anybody like to buy some very fetching sets of new and almost new, bright pink,  but otherwise very manly looking underwear?

You can find general instructions and videos for the use of Dylon cold reactive dyes here;

http://www.dyeproservices.com/DYLON%20DYE%20&%20PRODUCTS.htm

If you follow the instructions to the letter, results are excellent. This is also very good for dyeing small amounts of loose feathers, like duck breast for mayflies etc. Using warmer water accelerates some things, but boiling etc is not necessary at all. For some things, adding vinegar etc is also helpful. Some experimentation may be required.

The cost of dyeing various things is not normally particularly high in terms of actual cash. Although this also rather depends on how far you get into it. Like other things, ( collecting fly-dressing materials, buying new rods, etc etc ) it can become addictive! It is only fair to point out that for most people who are using more or less standard materials in standard colours, it is easier to buy what one requires. It may be cheaper as well, this depends on how you go about it.

A certain amount of experimentation and experience is more or less essential if you want to obtain very good results consistently.

One of my main reasons for getting so involved in dyeing stuff, was because I had rather an excess of quite a number of  materials, and these can be made much more useful by dyeing, and because I learned a long time ago that one can save a great deal of money by buying in bulk, and one can also control the quality of material one acquires more easily. For instance, once I had a few patterns and various uses for goat, I went to a fur dealer and selected a full goat skin, cut it up, and dyed what I needed. The result of this particular action, is that I have a full range of very high quality material for very little total outlay. If I were to buy a similar high quality selection from various dealers etc, then it would have cost a great deal more, and I would most likely not have received the quality I wanted.

Also, the reverse applies. Occasionally one wants a dozen feathers or so of a particular colour. Buying a dyed skin, or dyeing a whole skin would be pointless, as it would then for the most part end up unused in a drawer somewhere. It is easy to quickly dye up a dozen feathers, or a patch of skin,  half a cape etc etc. Incidentally, this also applies to things like top quality Whiting saddles.  I simply can not afford to buy a whole range of these things, although I have quite a number, but with just a couple, and judicious use of the dye pot now and again, one can still dress a very large range of flies. This saves time and money in the long run. One gets exactly what one wants, and one learns a great deal about material use and preparation.

In some cases, such as the Polar  bear discussed above, I was lucky enough to get a large piece of a pelt given to me , and cutting it up and dyeing it to the appropriate colours was my only sensible option. Of course, I also did not want to waste any of it, and after the first couple of experiments with hot dyeing, ( and a short excursion into photo -dyeing) I realised that it was not the best way to go. I have also done some dyeing for some suppliers, on the strict understanding that I would not be liable for any mishaps, and I did it for free. Much the same applies to various other things I have collected, like various fur coats, Arctic fox pelts, innumerable hare skins, capes from barnyard fowl, various duck wings, etc etc etc.

I still dress quite a few flies, but nowhere near as many as I once did, and the range of fly patterns I use has also narrowed considerably over the years, so quite a lot of the material I now have is really superfluous,which is why I don´t collect much any more, and it is a long time since I bought anything either. One has to weigh up what one wants , and then decide how to do it. It is also not only a question of money, although this is of course an important consideration.

Might I also advise that you use a few goat scraps etc to test, before you actually use any Polar bear? The hairs have some similarities and are good for testing Also, try and reckon how many flies ( roughly of course) you are hoping to dress from any particular piece, and only dye a piece of the size you think you will need. You can always dye another bit later, but if you have dyed a large piece black, and you need red, then you are buggered! It seems I have a "lucky hand" with some of these things ( the more I learn the luckier my hand gets! ), but I have heard some disaster stories about ruined material from quite a few people over the years. Indeed, just a couple of days ago a guy came around asking me if I could somehow save a jungle cock cape he had bleached and dyed, ( a complete waste of time and effort if you ask me), because he had seen a pattern somewhere calling for scarlet dyed jungle cock! Of course, it is damaged beyond repair, and is practically falling to bits. A shocking and completely pointless waste of good material. Not to mention the expense involved.

Frequently asked questions!

Q. Do all the natural furs and feathers fall into the "Wool" category?

NO! for Polar bear, goat, and hare, I use the salt and "fix" it gives better results.

It works with the vinegar as well though, instead of the salt and "Fix". This is also of course cheaper, but the colours seem slightly less vibrant.

For naturally fatty but delicate materials like duck breast, some CDC and mohair, I used the vinegar, after a couple of small trials.

The vinegar works best when the bath is heated, ( above 40° C is enough).

The Salt and Fix work better in cold water. At least on those things I have tried.

For ( most!) tanned materials the salt and fix seemed best, For untanned or only washed materials, ( as opposed to completely degreased) the vinegar was better.

There are of course untold numbers of variables here, so do a little test yourself before you commit!

It is also essential that material be added to the bath simultaneously! If you have two pieces of fur, then they must be placed in the bath together, Placing first one, and then the other, may ( WILL!) have odd results.

Once the dye has taken, and the bath has cleared, it makes no difference when material is removed, or in what sequence.

If the bath does not clear, then you are doing something wrong. Either you have not reached the required temperature , you have too much dye in the bath, or something else is wrong ( have you forgotten the vinegar, not used the right amount, or whatever else you may be using?).

You may get some material dyed in an uncleared bath, and you may increase the colour density by prolonging the sojourn in the bath, but this is no substitute for proper dyeing!


Q. Can you prepare a cold dye bath, test a small chunk of fur etc, rinse, dry and inspect and then go on to dye a substantially larger quantity of fur in the same bath?

Yes, this will work as long as your test piece is very small. The amount of dye in the bath must correspond to the dry weight of the material you are eventually going to dye, for the shade required. You can not keep on "testing" as this exhausts the bath.


Q What about necks and saddles-where do they fall in category? Fixant or Vinegar

I still mostly use hot dyes for necks and saddles, and have not tested much. I use the cold dyes for dyeing a dozen feathers or so, or a small piece of fur. I use vinegar for this it is easier to measure and use. This is because I have a large selection of hot acid dyes, and I don´t want to waste them.

Q. Can I adjust the dye-bath "on the fly"?

You can adjust a dye bath by adding dye ( and either vinegar, or salt and fix) proportionally.

Everything you place in the bath will take on the dye, and this of course exhausts the bath. Apart from testing small pieces, you should only use a dye bath for one piece of material ( or one "dye run"), as this will otherwise affect results.

The amount of dye and other substances in the bath must reflect the amount of material, (ratio of dye powder to dry weight) you wish to dye. Small test pieces will not affect this much, but several test pieces or trying to use the same bath twice will affect it considerably. This also depends on the capacity of the material for accepting the dye.

My main reasons for using the cold dyes at all, is in some cases convenience, ( easy to dye a small quantity of material quickly and with very little preparation), and because they do not damage or alter some sensitive materials ( Polar bear for instance) like a hot dye bath will, and are easier to use. There is nothing really critical.

With hot dye baths, there are a number of possible problems.


Things like picric acid, and one or two other things, are not dyes as such, and work in a different manner, as do some stains.

Materials vary quite widely in their affinity for dyes, and the transport medium and other substances used also affect this affinity, as does the temperature, the water quality, atmospheric pressure etc.

All true dyes work in the same basic manner, but how this is achieved varies very considerably. It is important to grasp this, and realise how the dye itself and the other substances involved affect the process.

After a while, one can make very accurate "educated guesses" about a number of things, but specifying these things to begin with is very difficult indeed.

This is why dyeing fly-dressing material is really more of an art than a science. Occasionally one can be very surprised by some results, although consistency can also be learned. The best way to go about it, is to eliminate all possible variables, duplicate all known constants, and then keep your fingers crossed!

Even material from the same animal, treated in the same way can give a different result in an apparently identical dye bath. Natural materials vary so widely that there are virtually no hard and fast rules for most of them, only general guidelines. It is not at all the same as dyeing processed fabrics and the like.

It all sounds extremely complex, but it is not that difficult really. If you want to dye ten squirrel tails the same colour, then these must be placed in the bath simultaneously! If you put them in the bath one after another, they will end up being different shades! The last ones being the lightest. This will occur even if you have more than enough dye in the bath! The reasons for this are quite complex, and are basically irrelevant here. Apart from which, I know of no sensible reason for an amateur fly-dresser to do such a thing! Professional dyers all have their tricks and knowledge, much of which is very carefully guarded.

Assuming you have 10 grams of feathers to dye. The dye supplier will have provided you with a ( usually rough) formula for calculating how much dye you need ( this may even be in the form of teaspoonfulls, or whatever) in relation to the material weight. In some cases this will be given in relation to the bath capacity, or in litres of water ( which is bad, as it is difficult to calculate other amounts).Assume in this case that one gram of dye is required to dye ten grams of feathers TO A PARTICULAR SHADE, of a certain colour. If you then dissolve the dye in the water ( often it is recommended to use only enough water to cover the material, but it is easier to use multiples of a fixed size, either pints or litres), then that dye bath ( including the recommended amounts of other substances required for that process) will dye material weighing ten grams to a certain shade of that colour.

If you put twenty grams of material in the bath simultaneously, then you will get a much lighter shade, because the dye is split between the twenty grams of material. If you put five grams of material in the bath, you will get a darker shade ( Up to the capacity of the material to absorb the dye), because there is more dye available for the material. At some point or other, the material is no longer capable of absorbing all the dye, and the bath will not clear, and the material will not get any darker. There is no way to change this! Lastly, this only works if you have ten grams of identical material to begin with! If you put a five gram piece of goat hair, and a five gram bunch of feathers in the same bath, you will likely get different shades of colour, because the materials are different! There is no way of knowing exactly how much dye any given piece of material will take. One can make various more or less complex calculations, but they are usually a waste of time.

Water in a ( correctly mixed ) dye bath is a homogenous transfer medium, but the materials placed in the water are not usually homogenous.
One problem with capes for instance, and many tanned furs, is that the skin will often absorb a lot more dye than the fur or feathers!  The skin is of course useless, but wastes most of the dye. If you set up a dyebath for a certain amount of material, we will stay with our example of one gram of dye powder to ten grams of material as recommended by the dye manufacturer, then you can assume that under perfect conditions, with perfect identical and homogenous material, that the colour you eventually obtain will be more or less as advertised by the dye manufacturer in his colour swatches. If you use only five grams of material, under the same conditions, then the colour will still be about the same! But there will be dye left in the bath. If you use twenty grams of material, you will get a lighter shade, and the bath will be exhausted. Because the same amount of dye is split between double the amount of material.

If one wants a darker shade of a certain colour, and one also wishes an optimal usage and dye process, then one must use a darker shade to start with. Adding more dye is quite pointless. ( seems to be what more or less everybody does though ! )Light green is light green, and you can  not make it dark green by adding more dye. When using dark colours like black, or dark claret, adding more dye does not change the colour, but it may affect the density of that colour, up to the capacity of the material to absorb it. However, once the dye has "taken" there is no way to darken that colour any more except by using other tricks. The material concerned may also have much less affinity for some colours than others, and this also affects the outcome of the whole thing.

In rare cases, I have had some materials only take up a part of the dye. I wanted purple, I had purple in the dye bath, and got red material with a blue exhaust! The material only absorbed the red dye. Such extremes are not usual, but they do occur. "Dipping" material quickly into a bath, and then removing it, can also cause this, as the dye components are also absorbed at different rates. Most hot acid Dyes are made up of various colours!

If you achieve a result you are not satisfied with, you can usually overdye to improve or change it. This only works if the shade you wish to obtain is darker or deeper  than  the one you have! Some dyes will only result in pastel colours. This is especially so if various criteria are not met when dyeing. In the case of hot acid dyes, this is usually because the temperature was not reached.

When using cold dyes, then in many cases, heat will improve and accelerate the dyeing process! Do not boil the bath though! Heat accelerates all chemical processes! However, for many reactive dyes, there is only one optimum temperature for dyeing. (Often about 30°C) above or below this the results are poorer! When testing, especially using rare or valuable material, then only use small amounts of the same material for testing. In some cases, one can use other test material, ( Goat for Polar bear for instance). Remember that even small test pieces on the skin may take up a lot of dye from the bath!  If you dye three test pieces in a bath, then you have removed that dye from the bath!  You must add more dye and the various other materials proportionally to the bath, in order to achieve the same or a deeper or darker result.

Get used to weighing your materials ( those to be dyed)on an accurate kitchen scale. This will allow you to reproduce things quite accurately.
Don´t be too impatient!  Take your time and work carefully.

Use distilled water!  Or at the very least boiled water.If you have scum or other things floating about on the water in the dye bath, or various minerals etc dissolved in the water, this will affect the results.  Ideally the distilled water should have a pH of 7 before you commence operations.

That was about it really.

The cold dyes from the Dylon range contain various reactive dyes. The "Sahara Sun" for instance contains c.i. Reactive Orange 4.

Some info here;
http://www.pburch.net/dyeing/FAQ/nosources.shtml

Generic sodium carbonate works all right as a fixative.

By the way, these reactive dyes have a strictly limited life ( once mixed). One can not save a dye bath and use it the next day for instance. This will not work, or only very poorly.Always use a fresh dye bath, and use it up within one day!

There is a lot of good info here;
http://www.pburch.net/dyeing/aboutdyes.shtml

With regard to various natural dyes. One or two people asked about this.I have used a number of these, and I have extracted and prepared quite a few, but this is not something which can casually and easily be accomplished by an amateur.

W.S. ( Bill ) Bailey, , has far more expert knowledge in this area than I.  He also supplies some special dyes to the trade, and dyes materials for traditional classic salmon flies. For really specialist questions, he is the man to contact. If anybody has such questions, drop me a mail, and I will pass the question on to Bill.

The reactive dyes mentioned will give the best results for most materials, and more or less any shade or colour can be mixed.However, there are some colours/shades/effects, which may only be obtained by using certain specific ( natural or synthetic) dyes and materials. The cold reactive dyes will also not damage materials, which is the single largest problem when using hot acid aniline dyes and similar.Practically the only reason I still use the aniline hot acid dyes is because I have a wide selection of them, I spent a lot of time learning how to use them properly, and I don´t want to waste them.

If you are just starting out dyeing, then I would recommend you becoming au fait with the cold reactive dyes from the start!

At one time I thought the hot acid dyes were the best alternative for dyeing materials, but I no longer think so, and I will not be buying any more. As previously noted, the temperature of the dye bath, even for "cold" dyes can be critical! Stick to the manufacturers instructions, which will generally give the best results. Experimenting is more likely to cause problems!Normally, I will not comment on what other people have written about various things. I will give you my opinion on the matter itself, if I have one, but I am not here to criticise others.

Regarding the sense and motivation for these things. That is also not really my affair. I know why I do it, and I can try and give my reasons, but there are some things which may not be rationally or logically justified!Your wife/girlfriend etc may not be quite as open to various arguments in this regard, as some dedicated angler/dyer! She may even be averse to pink underwear! ( On you at least!) Which might complicate matters!!!

Quite a long time ago now, my wife ( now deceased), pointed one or two things out to me. Mainly that these pastimes, angling, flydressing, dyeing, collecting and preparing materials, all have certain things in common. They are by nature solitary endeavours, and not team sports!
They require a considerable amount of time, drive and enthusiasm. If you don´t have these, then it is a bit pointless engaging in them! If you need a certain colour of a certain material once in a blue moon, then simply buy it! It is not worth getting heavily involved in these things unless you either need or want to! Now that I am retired, but still relatively young, I spend the majority of my time engaged in these and similar activities. There is nobody to say me nay, and if I have to subsist on spaghetti for a week because I spent too much on the latest range of fly-dressing tools , or some new vice or material, which I don´t actually need anyway, then that is my problem, and no big deal!

If you have problems even getting enough fishing in, then it is probably best to leave these areas of endeavour to others, and try to maximise your enjoyment as best you can. I am well aware that I am not a "typical" angler, I have been obsessed for many years, and this is why I have learned so much about various things. Of course I enjoy it, or I would not do it, but I certainly do not expect anybody else to think or see things as I do. There are always any number of ways to skin a cat, but some ways may be easier or more effective. These may also be highly subjective. Indeed, I have it on good authority that there are people who skin cats merely in order to see how many ways they can find to do it!

One should also not neglect dyeing in regard to naturally coloured feathers and fur ( as opposed to just using white material). Some excellent effects may be achieved by choosing the right base material, and dyeing it appropriately. For a first class claret, one can use a dark red game cape ( or a few hackles!) to begin with. Other colours also give some excellent results. Also, it is a mistake to think that just because somebody has been doing something for a long time, that they are necessarily an expert on the matter. How one goes about doing things is of greater importance, than the time spent doing so. Somebody who is always trying new methods, and learning as much as he can, is far more likely to be an expert than somebody who simply continues to use the same old methods all the time. This applies to a lot of things, and not least to fishing!

With regard to dye experiments, a certain knowledge base is required to allow this to be done sensibly. One can not just mix up various chemicals and try them without some prior knowledge. This can also be dangerous! Fortunately, for the majority of things, ready made dyes like the cold reactive dyes mentioned can be used, and one can become quite expert in this, and there is room for some experiment. Of course, the main reason for such experiment is to find an optimal method, which gives optimum results. Once you have found a method or mixture which gives more or less perfect results in a certain material, then there is not much point in further experiment.

People often ask me about it, but I don´t know anything at all about dyeing material with soft drink powders. There is some info on the web about dyeing with "kool-aid", but I have never tried it, and I don´t know how it works.Before I do these things, I endeavour to obtain as much information as I possibly can. This helps to make decisions on such matters. Even then some experimentation is often required, and this can take up a lot of time and effort.I can only give info on things I have tried myself, or know for a fact.  The possibilities are quite endless, and one can experiment forever. I don´t know all the possibilities, and can only explain what I use and how I do it. If you use other dyes or techniques, then you must perforce acquaint yourself with them.

TL
MC

[Black-Don]

Mike,

Thank you very much for taking the time to post this information !

I'll have a good read through everything you've posted over the next couple of days and I'll maybe then have a "bash" ( I use that term very loosely ), with a couple of the Veniards proprietory dyes but very much doubt I'll ever reach your level of expertise in this matter.

What I'd like to achieve is a passable W.O.I. golden olive, a nice claret, a nice olive and possibly a hot orange on natural capes.

I became interested in this process on reading John Veniard's 1952 Fly Dresser's Guide where he makes the whole process seem quite simple and straight forward. But, then again that was back in the day before even genetic capes, as we now know them, were readily available to fly tyers' and the only methods of dubbing were the standard waxed thread or southern Irish twisted wire method which even then was quite novel  !!!!

Thanks again for your detailed insight , to this whole "new" angle of the sport, for me, which is quite clearly an art in itself.

Best regards,

Donald.

[Darwin]

I am fairly new to dyeing but I have done OK with some.  I to am chasing after the WOI Golden Olive and Sooty Olive.  Hints greatly appreciated

Mike thanks for all of your information, I will be back to read it this weekend.

Donald give this a look http://www.rainbowsilks.co.uk/ProductDetails.cfm?SubCatId=107&Code=JACA  they sell Jacquard's acid dye, the claret and oranges are nice.  I think the WOI GO is somewhere between Golden Ochre and Aztec Gold.
I am not a fan of all of the Veniard dyes, they are blended mixes and are not consistent  

I have an Irish friend that swears by Dylon's Claret/Bordeaux and the Windsor Purple

I use about 1/8th of a teaspoon for a saddle or piece of Roe deer, one tub of dye will last a good long time.

[Traditionalist]

Mike,

Thank you very much for taking the time to post this information !

I'll have a good read through everything you've posted over the next couple of days and I'll maybe then have a "bash" ( I use that term very loosely ), with a couple of the Veniards proprietory dyes but very much doubt I'll ever reach your level of expertise in this matter.

What I'd like to achieve is a passable W.O.I. golden olive, a nice claret, a nice olive and possibly a hot orange on natural capes.

I became interested in this process on reading John Veniard's 1952 Fly Dresser's Guide where he makes the whole process seem quite simple and straight forward. But, then again that was back in the day before even genetic capes, as we now know them, were readily available to fly tyers' and the only methods of dubbing were the standard waxed thread or southern Irish twisted wire method which even then was quite novel  !!!!

Thanks again for your detailed insight , to this whole "new" angle of the sport, for me, which is quite clearly an art in itself.

Best regards,

Donald.

My pleasure.

As I wrote, once you have done it the actual dyeing itself is merely a matter of being careful and correctly using whatever you have.  Achieving some shades and colours in the quality you want is not always easy at all, but can be achieved very accurately with a little care. The effects of dyeing some things, and the best way to do it or dye to use etc etc are all basically matters of trial and error, although you can remedy some mistakes by overdyeing.  The theoretical calculations and background of some dyeing processes is extremely complex and takes a while to master even relatively superficially.  Over the years I have done a lot of dyeing using various materials and processes, usually quite successfully, and so I managed to learn quite a lot about it.

Some specific shades and colours  like West Of Ireland Olive, Sooty olive, and a few others can be difficult to achieve in the quality you want.  The only way to do it is to actually try.  I very rarely dye pure white material, I invariably use capes, skins, fur etc with a certain basic colour scheme in order to obtain the results I want.

This is a golden olive partridge skin dyed using a special mixture of certain dyes;



it took me a while to achieve this particular colour/shade.The main basic dye used here is onion skin dye with alum mordant. Some info on that;

http://vikland.tripod.com/onion.html

http://www.renaissancedyeing.com/latest-news_onions/

http://waysofthewhorl.wordpress.com/2011/04/06/natural-dyeing-take-2-onion-skins/

Using the Veniards stuff is fairly easy ( as shown here;  http://homepage.ntlworld.com/radbard88/  ), as long as you want the "standard" dye colour offered, or some easily mixed shades.  It is less useful for various "special" projects as it is very hard indeed to get certain mixes right, ( some although theoretically possible don't work very well or fail to achieve the results desired). most of the Veniard dyes are in any case mixed colours to begin with, and they are so called "Union" dyes ( also known as "all purpose dyes"). All Purpose Dye" is a mixture of Acid dye, for dyeing wool and other animal (protein) fibers, as well as nylon, and Direct dye, for dyeing cellulose fibers such as cotton, rayon, linen, etc. However it cannot be used to dye polyester. This alone may produce some odd results on some materials and can be difficult to use as the material concerned may not take up all the dye used!!

The whole "dyeing thing" is very enjoyable and fascinating in itself, but as with many things it takes some knowledge and experience to obtain many results as you would like to have them. Some of the traditional Irish colours are best obtained using natural dyes and processes.  This however is also a massive field!

Here are some recipes and instructions which work well,you can download the book(s) as PDF's;  

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=Blacker%20fly

Example page;

http://www.archive.org/stream/wblackersartofan00blac#page/44/mode/2up

for some of the colours and flies involved you might find that my enhanced colour plates are of interest;

http://www.wildfisher.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=16869.0

The MAJOR exception to Blacker's instructions is DON'T BOIL FEATHERS!  It will ruin them. Some fur can withstand a light boil without being damaged but is also best avoided.

TL
MC