Out Casting for a wee while trying out a couple of lines with Davefromtheattic last night.
When I was watching him casting(beautifully) that old chestnut came to mind " i don't need to cast that far i catch fish anyway" Used by people who can't cast usually.
I had been at a Demo at the weekend and I remebered an anology Andrew Toft used it went somthing like this but this ain't verbatim so if I get a wee bit wrong sorry Andrew.
"Anglers who can cast to the other side of the stream,sometimes catch fish on the Dangle. Those who can't never catch a fish over there."
You don't have to be able to cast but it helps if you can.
Season is upon us now so I have to go Fishing. Bye
Brian
Lot of truth in that. I certainly catch loads of fish, but I reckon I would catch a whole lot more by improving my casting. The standard of casting in Scotland is very poor probably because it's mainly stockie bashing and loch fishing most anglers do where casting skills play a much smaller part. In river fishing it's far more important. Casting clubs that meet regularly are a great thing, the results of the Glasgow club speak for themselves. Casting is not the only part of fly fishing but it is an important part.
We will have to agree to differ on this one I'm afraid Mark. :D I am not setting myself as an example, my own casting could be far better, I am simply repeating the words of a long established and much respected instructor and I can't find much to disagree with in what he said. One of the greatest drivers and motivators in acquiring greater skill is need. It does not matter if you are a football player, a musician or a fly fisher.
The main thing however is enjoyment, if you are happy with what you are doing then there isn't really a problem. I think as far as I'm concerned that's part of it. The effort required in getting better or the impracticality of it is probably not justified by the extra success it might bring. Law of diminishing returns I suppose. That said if there was a club like the Glasgow one up here I would attend.
Quote from: Alan on March 17, 2011, 01:06:10 PM
but this is not always that easy till you see someone else to it and you realise that it can be done.
That's so true and I would add also being able to see the effect of not being able to do it. There is still the cost / benefit relationship to consider however.
Casting clubs are at their best for learning things that you cannot do. I won't allow any mucking about with things that work for me no matter how technically incorrect they may be. There is no benefit.
On the other hand they are great for watching what people can do and attempting to copy real experts. In my case the biggest change has been the use of the double hander where I moved into the "competent" category by watching my betters and asking questions. I wouldn't have done that in a fishing situation - I'd have been too busy trying to catch fish.
Similarly I spent months at the club doing nothing but casting left handed, a frustrating business I can tell you! Again something I wouldn't have done on the river but which at the end of the day will have considerable benefit.
Some casting is quite separate from fishing. During the last 3 months I've been trying out distance casting and making big improvements but I can't for the life of me think what benefit it will bestow on my normal fishing.
Quote from: buzz on March 17, 2011, 03:34:01 PM
Great casting does not make you a better fisherman
Perhaps not, but poor casting can make you a less successful one. I speak from experience. :lol: I agree casting is just one element, but it is a very important one. In some situations it's less important than others, like loch fishing from a drifting boat for example. This is one reason why the standard of casting in Scotland is not high, it quite simply does not have to be to catch fish in most situations. When you can see how fish react it is literally an eye opener. Sight fishing requires a vastly higher standard of casting - to big spooky wild trout that is - not demented stockies. I have lost count how many times I have been fishing with Alex on some river in New Zealand and have given up on a fish simply because my casting was not good enough. His is and he gets the fish most times.
Quote from: buzz on March 17, 2011, 03:34:01 PM
Great casting does not make you a better fisherman, a multitude of things do with casting being one element.
I think the reason I've become so engrossed in fly fishing is because of the many elements that combine to make you a good fisherman. Last season taught me that I know next to nothing about it, although luckily caught fish. I just decided to work on one thing at a time and got out on the grass and got my overhead casting whipped into resonable shape. I want to fish some rivers this season so started working on rolls and speys. Now the season is upon us it's time to look at entomology and reading water. Surely this is the order in which these things must be learned. Like Fred said, he knew where the fish was, I'm sure had deduced an appropriate fly to have on and had an appropriate leader setup, but if you can't put the fly where you want it in the way you want it the rest is useless.
Another thing that comes to mind - I used to think that the fact I can cover a rising fish and catch it more often than not made me a reasonable caster. Well, maybe, but quite honestly I have since discovered that you can get away with murder with fish that are engrossed on feeding, sometimes it's difficult to spook them even if you try. Not always, but very often. In other words you can often get away with pretty indifferent casting if fish are feeding hard.
Quote from: buzz on March 17, 2011, 04:08:49 PM
Talking of Alex, hope his bum is better.
I bet you he is at the edge of his seat reading this.
I'm currently starving myself and 'enjoying' drinking copious amounts of "Kleen Prep" which means I'm highly likely to be on the edge of another seat shortly :shock:
Meanwhile, back at the thread...
I'm sure we all agree that good casting is just one facet of the compleat angler. There is more to being a successful angler than just the ability to cast well. Good observational skills and an open mind are two examples.
The good caster scores not only when distance is required. He can handle wind much better than the guy who casts less well in ideal conditions.
How to cast into a wind and how to make big directional changes are common questions at the Glasgow Casting Club. The first of those is an essential skill for all bank loch fisheres in my view. Who wants to be restricted to just fishing the bank with the wind behind him? Likewise, being able to change direction quickly and accurately puts a lot of extra fish on the bank for the good caster on river or loch.
As Alan said, sometimes you need to see what is possible by witnessing it first hand, before recognising how learning a new technique can help you.
One example of that is the circle cast. Magnus Angus showed me that one a few years back and now I use it very often, especially when nymphing. It is safe, quick and easy if you can already roll cast.
The snake roll is another example of a cast that has revolutionised my fishing. Eion Fairgrieve showed me that one first and I'm glad he did. The point is, by seeing these two casts performed, I saw how I could use them in my day to day fishing.
As for distance casting. I'm not really into extreme distance casting with tackle I wouldn't fish with, but I do like to be able to put out a long line if needed when fishing, so I tend to practice casting at distance with my 'fishing' rods and lines.
Alex
I should have said in my OP That fishing/Casting was relative(adjective) Well for all that Casting today,never turned a fish.Big water never helped,neither did Stewart. I should really learn to tie flies :(. Of to Wales for a couple of Days the river is meant to be low :D
You know debate is a good way to learn as well,so we are even learning when we are arguing :P
Happy Birthday Mark.
Aye, happy birthday, didn't realise.
Quote from: haresear on March 17, 2011, 05:47:14 PM
Who wants to be restricted to just fishing the bank with the wind behind him?
Wind behind - the same long term and respected instructor who made the general comment about Scottish fly casting standards also noted that most Scottish fly fishers who boat fish, drifting with the wind, are pretty decent single haulers. If they were not they would have their line warped around their necks more often.
That is just so true and it's something you learn instinctively as a loch-style boat fisher. It's the
need point again. I was single hauling 30 years ago - probably before it was called single hauling :lol:. No one showed me, I didn't read about it. I just did it beacuse I had to. After I returned from my first New Zealand trip more "aware" I started watching other angler's casting a lot more closely. Low and behold I discovered pretty much all were just as bad as I am and had more or less the same faults.
I know exactly where the problems lie with my casting, doing something about it after 40 years is not easy. Part of the problem is lack of motivation, because I catch lots of fish and I do because the fish here are a lot easier to catch, partly because there are just so many of them in the water. Solo casting practice bores the arse off me, I really need the environment of a Glasgow-style casting club. I am not alone. When Alberto posted here about starting the Glasgow club he mentioned that one of his motivations was bouncing ideas off / getting feedback from fellow anglers. I understand that.
The Glasgow club has produced some outstanding results. Alex could cast before, but have you seen Alan cast? And Scott is just astonishing.
I guess I'll just have to stumble on! :lol:
You Have an open invitation to join us any weekend you want :P
Brian
Thanks Brian, it's a wee bit far for a regular thing, but I appreciate the offer. :D
True smurf, and many of the hell holes up this way have similar arrangements. That however does not alter the fact that farm raised fish associate people with feeding time while wild fish associate the same with danger. Arguably he splashier you can cast the better when stockie bashing. The natural food of the stockie, the sandeel pellet, causes quite a commotion when delivered by the bucket load.
Quote from: Alan on March 18, 2011, 12:44:18 AM
i had to ponder an earlier comment, that casting is perhaps a lesser component of catching fish than the mysterious collection of knowledge that we call 'fishing',
it occurred to me that a fly fisher can go a long while catching very little and not realise he is sending every fish in his path hurtling for safety, in a country where you dont usually see the fishes reaction its easy to think your cast is acceptable and never think to improve, it is maybe for good reason that places where the fish are visible produce good casters
,
presentation is often cited as terribly important but fishing where you cant see the fish, few respect the astonishing power the lift has to clear vast areas of fish, the lift can be a more violent movement than the arrival, yet rarely considered, more so when you cant see what your scaring, is this a casting skill or a fishing skill?
Being able to see what's happening can be both exciting and dispiriting! Always educational though. You are right about the lift, ripping the line off the water and spraying the surface with droplets really is not good. :D Fishing blind can be really exciting too though in some ways pulling unseen fish up out of nowhere can be a mysterious and rewarding experience.
Getting back to casting I keep coming back to the concept of need driving effort and performance. If you can catch fish being an average or even a poor caster way bother trying to improve? It might be you don't even realise you are a poor caster? It seems to me that in the UK good casting = distance and very little else. That may be a need thing too of course born on big reservoirs or lochs where the fish have been driven way out of range of the average caster or is it just knob waving?
Quote from: Alan on March 18, 2011, 12:44:18 AM
is this a casting skill or a fishing skill?
Alan,
Both, surely ?
T
Quote from: Alan on March 18, 2011, 06:17:57 PM
is that scathing? who cares i find it very time consuming and dull.
I don't' think it matters. Distance casting is not fishing but that does not make it a less valid form of knob waving than any other. Seriously it's probably fun if you are into that kind of thing. To each his own.
Quote from: Alan on March 18, 2011, 06:45:13 PM
fun for some perhaps, but its less valid in my eyes than learning to present to all given distances, which is a surer test of skill and develops very useful judgement skills, distance casting in its present form is like target shooting without the target..
im off on one :lol:
I could not agree more and if I lived in an area with a casting club I'd be out there with the best of them practising regularly.
The key to the success and seriousness of any such organisation is in the last word of the above sentence. If it's not regular it cannot be taken with any seriousness and does not deserve to be.
When I'm fishing I'm not thinking about my casting and when I'm casting I'm not thinking about my fishing. There are times though when fishing that I have to think about my casting. The one situation is distance casting to a rising fish where I have to get the timing right to get the distance and the distance right to get it in the area of the rising fish and I don't have time for any practice cast first :) I am talking about 20 yds or so, near the limit of my ability :) If I don't make the cast I will try again or just go back to fishing until the next time. It doesn't annoy me that I didn't make the cast only that I didn't rise/catch the fish :shock: There are also times when the conditions are right but the fishing is slow when I will go into casting practice for a while but I soon get fed up with that and go back to fishing :)
QuoteThere are also times when the conditions are right but the fishing is slow when I will go into casting practice for a while but I soon get fed up with that and go back to fishing
I do that (practicing while fishing) too, but probably in a different way. On the river for example, I will make a point of getting my fly as far underneath trees as I can (sidecasting) to an imaginary fish. I will try different ways of getting a longer drift in a likely spot.
While blind fishing a river upstream you are constantly trying to get a better drift, so I suppose when fishing blind you are constantly practicing to get perfect presentation.
Slack line casts and line control in a current are skills the stillwater angler doesn't really need, so there are elements of casting that are pretty much irrelevant to anglers who only ever fish lochs and if you only ever fish lochs from a drifting boat in traditional loch style, then you can get by without needing to be able to cast very far at all. Different sets of skills for different situations is what it boils down to.
Alex
Being able to cast a long distance has a lot of benefits. It is trite but true to say that you lose nothing by having the ability to cast a long way. You can gain a lot. There are times even in Scottish waters where it is of great benefit:
- that magic zone at the edge of the ripple can be a variable distance away. There are times when you won't catch a thing close in but get int into the start of the ripple and you can have great sport. You don't even need to worry about having your presentation just right as the important thing is to get your flies into the taking zone. If the fish ain't there you ain't gonna catch 'em!
- On a big seatrout and salmon river the ability to cast a long distance will take you over lies that would be otherwise unreachable.
- Boat fishing with a sinking line. If there is a big wind blowing - even with a drogue your flies may not get down to the taking zone unless you have the ability to cast a long line
It is pointless to come back with the argument that having the ability to cast a long way as that will tempt you to cast a long way all the time. Or that it is impossible to get perfect presentation at 90 ft. Those arguments are so specious as not to be worthy of consideration by thinking anglers! Suffice it to say that perfect presentation can sometimes mean getting your flies in the taking zone.The ability to cast a long way does not stop you having the ability to lay down a size 16 emerger at 40ft or stop you casting 3 feet from the edge of a loch.The fact remains that an ability to cast long will often put a fish on the bank where otherwise it would have been untroubled by my mayfly emerger!
I did say earlier on that I was learning real distance casting techniques and I also said that these were almost useless for my fishing. The reason for this apparent anomoly is that these extreme techniques mean carrying such a long head (85ft) and call for such a vigorous casting action that there is very little opportunity to use them in real fishing; the fly would end up embedded in bushes or I would be over the side of the boat.
However, "normal" long casting is a great benefit.
Malcolm
I'm not the best of casters being self taught and mainly fishing on lochs. On lochs I guess I fall into the camp of casting as well as i need to to enjoy my fishing; the days where my lack of casting ability make a difference are very few or I just don't even notice. The thing that improved my fishing the most on lochs was stopping trying to cast as far as I could and concentrate on fishing better at a short to medium distance.
I agree that improving my casting could only be a good thing but at the moment my lack of casting ability does not affect my fishing enjoyment so its not an issue on lochs. It is an issue however on moving water which I started fishing on more often in the last few years; lack of casting skill (and most other moving water skills :)) does affect my enjoyment on rivers/burns so for the first time I have started thinking about casting lessons - might have to persuade SWMBO that a weekend in Glasgow is a good idea :)
Quote from: guest on March 18, 2011, 09:55:31 PM
Puzzled with this one? - I'm not the world's greatest caster - but if I'm boat fishing in a big wind I simply wheech the line up in the air on the forward cast and hey presto your almost at the backing - no great skill that IMHO :?
Like many fishermen your better than you know at fishing your local conditions! A big wind means a very hard backcast and, if you aren't used to it, means line around your neck. I do the same except I roll cast and fling the line up in the air for the wind to carry it.
Incidentally I happen to think that the way fly casting in Scotland is taught is very often wrong. The default way of teaching casting seems to me to be biased towards single lightweight fly and narrow loops with a light rod.
This is almost useless for a lot of Scottish fishers.
The standard way for a loch fisher is casting a team of fllies. The good self taught fisherman will therefore cast big open loops and will fish all day with few if any fankles. Fishing with very narrow loops is a disaster if fishing this most common of styles IMHO. It seems to me that if someone is wanting to improve then it should be with the tackle they use and if that tackle is a 10ft 7/8 weight and a four fly cast then that is what should be targeted. Similarly if someone is fishing for seatrout with weighted flies on an 8/9 rod then that should be what they learn. Please don't get me wrong - single fly and light rod is sometimes valid. More often it isn't.
Not sure that says much other than you caught 2 fish on the day Mark. One day in NZ this year I caught 4 fish and Alex blanked. Alex is still a far better angler than I am and that in a large part has to do with his far superior casting skills, not only, but it does play a large part. All other things being equal the man who covers the fish most effectively will catch it.
Is there such a thing as an instinctive angler? Someone who fishes lochs and rivers and varies his casting and methods to suit without thinking about what he does or at least not consciously. Fishing down a loch rising/catching fish and then moving onto a river still rising/catching with the same setup only the technique changing to suit the flowing water. Or does it come with experience or age maybe? Would casting lessons improve or just confuse this type of angler?
Quote from: fishtales on March 19, 2011, 10:35:14 PM
Is there such a thing as an instinctive angler? Someone who fishes lochs and rivers and varies his casting and methods to suit without thinking about what he does or at least not consciously. Fishing down a loch rising/catching fish and then moving onto a river still rising/catching with the same setup only the technique changing to suit the flowing water. Or does it come with experience or age maybe? Would casting lessons improve or just confuse this type of angler?
I think that is most of the people on this forum Sandy. Have you ever thought when confronted by a tricky riser : "Lord I don't have that 10ft Hanak 2 weight to get that ultra delicate parachute cast that Alex showed me"?
Of course not!
We may think of changing to a longer lighter leader or swapping flies but never with casting or rods or lines or reels. These are things that are peripheral to the problem. Something for the close season.
When you are on the river or loch they never enter the equation. The only thing on your mind is what is on the end of your line. You just know how to present it.
Would the casting lesson confuse or help though? Would it take the edge off his ability to asses the problem at hand and carry on or would he stop, stand back and dissect it to figure out the cast he is about to make? Would the spontaneity of the moment pass because he is thinking about the cast rather than just getting the fly to the fish as best he can? I'm not talking about a learner who has to be taught how to cast but the experienced angler who casts as well as he needs to for each situation he finds himself in when on the water whether it be river or loch.
Quote from: fishtales on March 19, 2011, 11:44:25 PM
Would the casting lesson confuse or help though? Would it take the edge off his ability to asses the problem at hand and carry on or would he stop, stand back and dissect it to figure out the cast he is about to make? Would the spontaneity of the moment pass because he is thinking about the cast rather than just getting the fly to the fish as best he can? I'm not talking about a learner who has to be taught how to cast but the experienced angler who casts as well as he needs to for each situation he finds himself in when on the water whether it be river or loch.
You can learn new things and use them when called upon. You can't learn too much and I don't believe that by knowing more about the theory of casting your fishing will suffer.
Alex
Quote from: haresear on March 19, 2011, 11:49:16 PM
You can learn new things and use them when called upon. You can't learn too much and I don't believe that by knowing more about the theory of casting your fishing will suffer.
Alex
Alex,
Mmmm ...... not sure about that. Knowledge should, of course, be a benefit. Sometimes, however, I think there is too much agonising, theorising and nit-picking over these things, with negative consequences. In fact, while hoping your hin' end is now progressing towards being pain and discomfort free, reading this thread I do suspect there may well be a lot of other sore bums when heids are at last disgorged ! :D
Malcolm, I wish it were true that " you just know ... " whatever. I don't think that's true at all. Once experience and long practice has led to high levels of accomplishment it may well be that the intuitive faculty kicks in. But it's not there for a lot - certainly isn't with me. I rather agree with the assertion that learning while fishing with experienced anglers is the way that many would learn best.
T
I would love to be able to cast like some folk and be able to say I'm going to present this fly using , for example, a circle cast ?
There's no doubt being able to cast with technical excellence can only improve your fishing experience. I admire folk who have the gift and ability to be able to cast like a pro.
I can shoot a line probably as far as the next guy and put a fly where I want to but wish I could be able to say that I can cast proficiently.
Quote from: buzz on March 20, 2011, 12:03:40 AM
Alex mentioned it in an earlier post, its a balance of all things.
Of course it is but ability to cast is a major factor in it. To put it another way, all other things being equal the better caster will do better. Yes we can all cite exceptions; we have all seen cases where the novice or the guy who has just duffed up a cast catches a fish, hell I've done it myself often enough! :lol: Being able to cast that extra few feet from the bank on a loch or cast with pin point accuracy to a fish on a clear spring creak is more than often the difference between success and failure. I have seen it too often to believe anything else. But I come back to need, if the need is not there or not perceived to be there then why bother? In Scotland you can catch lots of fish without being a great caster - I am not a great caster and I catch lots of fish. I don't do as well as I could when It am in New Zealand, but well enough not to get that bothered about it. QED. :D
I don't t believe top gun casters are
necessarily top-gun anglers by the way. I ran a poll on this a while back in fact which really pissed off a few lurkers from another forum. That was never the intention of course. :whistle2
Quote from: Alan on March 20, 2011, 03:36:46 PM.... but these 5 points are really all there is to it.
Aye, that'll be right ... :D
And there is the nub of the discussion. The five points are what I would expect to show a beginner just starting out. It was the way I was taught by my mate and it is how I have mentored others in my own way. Everything else usually comes after a time gaining experience and overcoming obstacles as they arise. Learning all the other casts from an instructor is like taking an advanced driving course. It doesn't affect the experience but advances knowledge. That knowledge isn't required by the majority of participants but there are those that wish to expand there knowledge and become proficient at casting but does it actually enhance their fishing? Does the casting take over from the fishing when a situation arises for them to practice a cast or do they just go on fishing instinctively? Once someone has learned to cast and they are enjoying their fishing is there really a need for them to go to casting classes to learn advanced techniques that they are probably already using in their own way?
Quote from: Exerod on March 20, 2011, 04:03:09 PM
Alan I am no caster, never had a lesson in my life. So I tend to keep out of casting threads because I don't know what I'm talking about But I must take issue with the 5 rules.
Andy
:? :? :? :? :? [ 0ne for each of your five disputations ! :) :)
Exerod,
Did you forget to insert one or two smilies in your post ? There is no doubt at all that these 5 principles are fundamental to efficient casting. I've seen a fair number of excellent casters, including Alan [ much as it sometimes pains me to compliment the bugger ! ] and they all deliver on these principles. Efficient casting, as Buzz says, is what we're talking about.
T
Quote from: Exerod on March 20, 2011, 04:03:09 PM
Alan I am no caster, never had a lesson in my life. So I tend to keep out of casting threads because I don't know what I'm talking about and even if I did I struggle to put it into words.
But I must take issue with the 5 rules.
No.1 Plainly nonsense!
No.2 True to a point, it depends on what you are trying to do.
No.3 Can't really argue with the first part of that!
No.4 True to a point. Again where you put the power depends on what you are trying to do, there is no one right place for the power.
No.5 In a river fishing situation there will almost certainly be some slack on the final delivery.
Maybe they are fine as a starting point in an ideal world but they make no sense to me on the river bank.
Andy
Andy, I'm in the same boat as you and Sandy is the same. I got some lessons in double handed casting at the casting club from Teither - who isn't a qualified instructor either - and then I got a short lesson from Gary Scott at the club as well as watching other good casters like Ian Kirk and Andrew Toft. It's a helpful environment because you don't have fishing to distract you.
I hope Sandy doesn't mind drawing an example from his casting. I watched Sandy fishing a team of flies in a 20 mph, right to left wind with a 20 ft high bank behind, very efficient it all was too. No tight loops or straight lines. There's just 40 years of fishing in there, stopping fankles, compensating for wind a just casting efficiently without thinking using a style that stops any trouble happening. Sandy isn't alone of course - most of us on this forum are the same whether it's fishing in hugely overgrown rivers or on awkward bankside spaces on big windy lochs. It's people like us who prompted me to say in an earlier post that the way we teach for Scottish conditions isn't always right. There's a good reason why experienced casters who aren't taught have developed the styles they have: it's because they work better than anything else.
I'm not downplaying the role of casting instructor - far from it - casting instructors are useful creatures indeed. If I had a need to learn a particular technique I would find one who was good at that technique. If I was a beginner then an instructor would shorten the learning path considerably.
I jist poot the flees where the troots are ?
:worried
I have to totally disagree with your breakdown on the 5 principles Andy.
The straight tip path - ok yes it very much depends what you are trying to do. But look at it in simple terms - if the tip dips under the straight line you make a tailing loop, it it rises over it - you may not make a loop at all (or you could actually tail just to confuse!).
The second is totally true. If you use the same size casting stroke for a long line as a short line you will tail.
Number four, there is a proper place the 'power' should be applied - at the end! Peak power coincides with the fastest rotation of the rod, which is towards the end of the stroke. Generally if it comes before you are going to tail. Just about everyone does this whether they know it or not.
Number 5 relates to during the actual casting stroke, not the final line delivery. We are talking about when the line is being pulled by the rod. Try piling the line at your feet hanging from the rod tip, now try and cast, it's not going to work. Everyone has made that cast when you have too much line in the air and you can't control it and all of a sudden you have a mass of wavy line sagging everywhere.
But aside from all the theorising, feck sake, don't argue about all this stuff. If someone makes a cast, they get the outcome that they want (whether good or bad to an outside viewer), and they are happy with it then where's the problem? And the debate on instructors and such - casting isn't rocket science, anyone can work it out themselves, an instructor might make certain tasks easier for you. I don't need my uni lecturers to learn what I'm studying in my degree but it sure does make it easier.
The thing is Casting IMO is Geeky but I am not harming anyone.
If I went FISHING with Malcolm,buzz,frank I would learn something,no doubt about it. If I went CASTING with Alan,Scott,Alex I would learn something no doubt about it. The reason for that is simple,I want to.
If people think they have all the answers they are wrong,if they go fishing,catch fish and are happy with their lot then happy days. Or are they really happy?
The five essentials they are well.................. Essential :D
Brian
Quote from: Brian Mcg on March 21, 2011, 08:23:35 AM
If people think they have all the answers they are wrong,if they go fishing,catch fish and are happy with their lot then happy days. Or are they really happy?
I keep coming back to the same word.
Need.
if it was down to 'needs' we would be worming or netting! It's about enjoying the experience.
Simple question: Whats helps to enjoy the experience? What hinders our enjoyment?
If our casting covers a range of situations that we find, without hitting the rod, catching our collar, landing in an undignified heap, or generating knots. Then the experience of a day by the river can on the whole, be more pleasurable.
We see other peoples effortless casting and think the experience would be even better if we can do that. But its not necessarily true.
Because casting is not the bottom line in fly fishing.... Getting trout to net is what counts.
Its not for most of us the quantity of trout, but the quality of the experience involved.... the challenge or the satisfaction gained.
And losing hooked trout before safely netting is much worse for most of us than getting the odd wind knot or the odd tailing loop.
On rivers: The further that trout is hooked from where your casting, the more chance you have of losing it, and of ruining your day a little.
Before one of the International river fly fishing championships Charles Jardine was doing some coaching with the team ( yes it surprised me too.) He was indicating a trout on the far bank, under a tree with some devious currents between caster and trout. They were discussing what type of cast and mends would get the right drift. One of the team said something like 'but that's daft, after all that faffing if you do hook it you'll never set the hook proper, and you'll probably lose it crossing the current just wasting time and fish.
Errant member was challenged as to how he would do it.
He went back down stream a little, crossed to the far bank, sneaked up within a few rod lengths, and caught the the trout and netted it double quick
Moral of the story; We sometimes forget that casting is just one of our skills along with stream management( tactics not weed cutting). Too much reliance on it and it can soon becomes a handicap.
Feeding trout in rivers tend to stay put.... we are able to move.
......... and now the rant!
I wish people put as much noodle and grey matter into learning about the dietry requirements of the quarry, the delicate Eco system that supports them, and realised that the best way to catch more fish or have more pleasurable days, is to make sure that the waters are kept healthy for them to thrive in, the larders full, and the nusery area's are clean and productive with good safe habitat provided for the juniors.
Being a 'Good' or 'Great' fishermen should be more about what you give back to the waters and do to protect and improve them, rather than how tight and far your loops shoot.
I don't see this as an argument Scott, it is a discussion on whether taking casting lessons or learning a multitude of casts is really necessary for the majority of anglers. If the new angler is having difficulties then I would agree that having someone to mentor him whether an experienced friend or a professional instructor is necessary or he ends up not enjoying the experience and giving up. For the more experienced angler I think the ones who take the lessons are the ones who feel they want to take their enjoyment a stage farther, like someone taking the advanced driving test.
My personal look on it is that it doesn't really enhance the fishing and that casting, and learning all the intricacies that that entails, is actually a separate skill. I realise though that if there weren't those dedicated to learning these skills then there wouldn't be anyone to give lessons to the new anglers, much the same as driving instructors. Learning the basic cast is all that most new anglers want. If they can get the fly where they want it and catch fish they are generally happy with that and as they progress they learn new casts that suit there style for the situations they are in at that moment in time. Although an integral part of fly fishing casting, that is advanced casting and all that entails, is actually separate from fishing and is really two different skills.
Quote from: whinging pom on March 21, 2011, 09:58:26 AM
......... and now the rant!
I wish people put as much noodle and grey matter into learning about the dietry requirements of the quarry, the delicate Eco system that supports them, and realised that the best way to catch more fish or have more pleasurable days, is to make sure that the waters are kept healthy for them to thrive in, the larders full, and the nusery area's are clean and productive with good safe habitat provided for the juniors.
You may be very pleasantly surprised then at the extent and depth of knowledge about the natural environment within the members of the Glasgow casting club.
Quote from: fishtales on March 21, 2011, 11:04:43 AM
I don't see this as an argument Scott, it is a discussion on whether taking casting lessons or learning a multitude of casts is really necessary for the majority of anglers. If the new angler is having difficulties then I would agree that having someone to mentor him whether an experienced friend or a professional instructor is necessary or he ends up not enjoying the experience and giving up. For the more experienced angler I think the ones who take the lessons are the ones who feel they want to take their enjoyment a stage farther, like someone taking the advanced driving test.
My personal look on it is that it doesn't really enhance the fishing and that casting, and learning all the intricacies that that entails, is actually a separate skill. I realise though that if there weren't those dedicated to learning these skills then there wouldn't be anyone to give lessons to the new anglers, much the same as driving instructors. Learning the basic cast is all that most new anglers want. If they can get the fly where they want it and catch fish they are generally happy with that and as they progress they learn new casts that suit there style for the situations they are in at that moment in time. Although an integral part of fly fishing casting, that is advanced casting and all that entails, is actually separate from fishing and is really two different skills.
What would you consider advanced Sandy?
Advanced as a caster you mean?
Anyone who has had the conviction to go and learn the intricacies of each and every cast that has been given a name by someone who has learned all the nuances of these casts and is willing to pass them on to others. A language teacher doesn't teach someone how to speak but he teaches the intricacies of the language so he is advanced as far as the person who only speaks the language is concerned. Someone who speaks the language doesn't have to go the teacher just as someone who has learned to cast doesn't have to go to a casting instructor.
Quote from: fishtales on March 21, 2011, 01:49:48 PM
Advanced as a caster you mean?
Anyone who has had the conviction to go and learn the intricacies of each and every cast that has been given a name by someone who has learned all the nuances of these casts and is willing to pass them on to others. A language teacher doesn't teach someone how to speak but he teaches the intricacies of the language so he is advanced as far as the person who only speaks the language is concerned. Someone who speaks the language doesn't have to go the teacher just as someone who has learned to cast doesn't have to go to a casting instructor.
Can't agree with that. Surely it's all to do with choosing the correct baseball cap? :D
I'm not buying that one Mark, sorry.
I can get someone else to tie flies for me. I can't get someone else to cast for me. Getting better at casting is something I have to do myself - if I feel the need of course. :lol:
I thought we were having a serious discussion on casting and whether it was a prerequisite for fishing or another branch of the sport. Obviously I was wrong.
Alan
I'm not disagreeing with anything. Yes I think there should be casting instructors, yes they enjoy their side of the sport but I don't think it adds anything to an experienced anglers enjoyment of his fishing. It may make him feel better thinking he can cast better but he will still fish the same way :) Which was the point of the original post.
Quote from: buzz on March 21, 2011, 06:25:03 PM
While i am sure most folk can cast, how many can wade tactically and do they know how many fish they spook doing so?
Well, I can only relate to my own experiences.
A better caster will be required to wade less. I wade far more than Alex does when I'm fishing with him. I have to get closer to the fish to be accurate. Even then he is still far more accurate than I am at all distances. He catches more fish than I do under these circumstances because he is a far better caster than I am. That?s in New Zealand of course where I can see the fish and see how they react.
The reason I don't bother too much is I'm only there for 3 weeks and in any case I?m happy with the numbers of fish I catch when I am there. I?m pretty laid back about that.
The other 6 months of my fly fishing is done here where I can?t see fish. This means casting accurately is far less important - the targets are bigger because most of the time I'm fishing the water. Sometimes I am casting to rising fish. Rising fish are feeding fish and generally you get away with a hell of a lot more sloppiness when fish are feeding, but not always of course.
I don?t believe I?m in any way unique, in fact I know I?m not. My first trip to NZ was an eye opener and prompted me to observe others at home. Most are just as mediocre casters as I am and have the same or at least similar faults.
Yes, there is more than casting to fly fishing and I don?t believe top gun casters all make top gun anglers, but in my experience being a better caster will help you help you catch you more fish. Certainly being a worse caster won?t.
Fred as long as you are Happy.
I think some people look at Instructors as if they are different from them(some are they have a different walk or srutt.)
I would never approach someone and suggest their casting is poor(some do) but if they approach me I will do all I can to help out.
But WP has a valid point I am not so good at entomology I know the basics but would love to know more(thanks John Goddard's waterside Guide). I am also not so hot at tying flies in fact I detest sitting tying flies so you could put me in the poor fisherman bracket.
The thing is at the moment I am Happy. I know the day I stop Learning they will be screwing the bit of Oak down on top of me. I wish I had been this keen at School(I would have been more interested if Mr Brown had resisted whacking me on the head every ten minutes) I wasn't stupid. I was Dyslexic.
Brian
To be honest I don't believe an in depth knowledge of entomology is hugely important. Yes, it's good, interesting and useful to have some idea about the flies and their life cycle, but I do like the John Gierach- "size 14 brown" approach. Anyway choosing a suitable fly is of little good if it ends up in a tree first cast. :lol:
Quote from: admin on March 21, 2011, 07:16:40 PM
To be honest I don't believe an in depth knowledge of entomology is hugely important. Yes, it's good, interesting and useful to have some idea about the flies and their life cycle, but I do like the John Mirach- "size 14 brown" approach. Anyway choosing a suitable fly is of little good if it ends up in a tree first cast. :Lil:
Fred that's why your blind fishing the water! If you had a better grasp on the larder and whats available when, by reading the clues. Then even if you have do have trouble seeing the fish, you'd at least know where they were likely to be and where and when in the river they would be feeding.
On those New Zealand rivers I dint think it's superior casting that's your biggest weapon, its superior water craft and stealth, and a good pair of eyes spotting for you.
(On the other forum I promoted all the info for kick sampling and entomology courses in the UK. And had Scottish anglers asking why you had none of those things north of the border. So i whinged and whinged to get an FBA course close to Glasgow. As of a few weeks back they were talking of pulling it... the English ones are all booked out, the Scottish one has very little interest.
Maybe like Malcolm says, generally you are all so clued up on this in this area, that you dint need help with it. But that's not reflected in the posts on this and other forums).
Casting cannot improve your fishing as much as increasing your knowledge of your quarry, its food, and improving its habitat. Casting just improves your casting and in many case just leads to superfluous bollocks with a fly rod.
Of course you have to know something about fly life, but you don?t have to be an entomologist. Likewise basic ?stealth? is surely just common sense? Keep low, move slowly don?t crash about, use cover and don?t wade unless you have to. Not difficult to acquire those skills surely? If you cannot see the fish you cannot possibly know you are spooking them. They might be, and very often are, at your feet. Therefore the best tactic for wading is not to wade at all. Not always practical or even possible of course. The better you can cast the less frequently you will have to wade, the more opportunity you will be have to use cover, the less you will crash or splash about and the more you will be able to exploit your knowledge of where fish are or are likely to be by getting the fly where you want it.
Stealth or tactical fishing is not a substitute for good casting. Good casting is part of stealth or tactical fishing.
Of course in rivers and lochs that are quite simply loaded with fish, like here in Scotland, the requirement for these skills is less. If you mess up on one fish there will be likely be another shoal round the corner and you might just get lucky. There is less need to be very good, so most of us are not.
Quote from: whinging pom on March 21, 2011, 08:56:39 PM
Fred that's why your blind fishing the water! If you had a better grasp on the larder and whats available when, by reading the clues. Then even if you have do have trouble seeing the fish, you'd at least know where they were likely to be and where and when in the river they would be feeding.
On those New Zealand rivers I dint think it's superior casting that's your biggest weapon, its superior water craft and stealth, and a good pair of eyes spotting for you.
(On the other forum I promoted all the info for kick sampling and entomology courses in the UK. And had Scottish anglers asking why you had none of those things north of the border. So i whinged and whinged to get an FBA course close to Glasgow. As of a few weeks back they were talking of pulling it... the English ones are all booked out, the Scottish one has very little interest.
Maybe like Malcolm says, generally you are all so clued up on this in this area, that you dint need help with it. But that's not reflected in the posts on this and other forums).
Casting cannot improve your fishing as much as increasing your knowledge of your quarry, its food, and improving its habitat. Casting just improves your casting and in many case just leads to superfluous bollocks with a fly rod.
WP. Please don't put words in my mouth. I did not say we are all so "clued up" so please do not try to finesse my words to make your point. Just make your own point and stick with it rather than warping words and context like a politician. There is no need to: you are clearly able to make your points known without resorting to such practice.
I'll speak for myself. If you read my posts you will more often than not see that they are filled with observations on wildlife around me rather than fishing. That is because fishing is a only a part of what I am interested in when I'm out on the river. On many trips I hardly cast a line because I'm crawling up some bank to watch the trout in the river or taking photos of snipe, identifying purple duns or maybe watching dragonflies. This afternoon I spent several hours filming a pair of black throated (the rarer of the two inland species) divers.
When I do fish for brownies on rivers at least 90% of the time I'm sitting watching what is happening before making a cast. It is seldom indeed that I would fish blind for brown trout in rivers. I know I'm not alone in this as I've fished with other WFF members who do exactly the same.
My own view is that the actual fly is much less important than watercraft as long as the fly is roughly the right colour, size and profile then I'd be happy to fish with it. By watercraft I mean the ability to present a fly to a trout without scaring the fish away or putting on it's guard; sometimes a fish will just sit there if it has been spooked rather than dive for cover. Decent casting is a big help here. As is water knowledge.
I really don?t like the phrase ?fishing blind? it implies the angler is fishing with closed eyes, closed mind or is just plain clueless. Oddly, the Kiwis seem to use it a lot to describe anything that is not casting to spotted fish. Personally I never ?fish blind?, only a complete beginner or someone who has learned nothing at all would do this. Fishing the water is not ?fishing blind? it?s looking at what?s in front of you and trying to figure where fish are likely to be when there are no fish to be seen or to be seen rising. Even fishing from a drifting boat is not fishing blind if you are thinking about what you are doing. The boat will be set to drift over what you believe to be fish holding water rather than spinning out of control out in the middle over 500 feet of water...... :D
Quote from: Malcolm on March 21, 2011, 11:42:24 AM
You may be very pleasantly surprised then at the extent and depth of knowledge about the natural environment within the members of the Glasgow casting club.
Aploogies to put your nose out of joint, but you were quoting the members of the glasgow angling club and not yourself. i dont see what difference it is between me using the term 'clued up', and your quote about the depth of knowledge within the membership.
As it is, when ever someone states 'Common sense' as a basis for Trout behaviour, river systems, entomology, or the enviroment, thats when I back out of the conversation.
Quote from: buzz on March 21, 2011, 10:48:32 PM
This is going off topic as Sandy said, maybe its more interesting.
I think it has and that was inevitable. However we can only comment honestly based on our own experiences, on what we see and what we believe. I know my own greatest single weakness is lack of good and consistently accurate casting. I know the faults and when I look at others I see the same thing. When I see fish, see fish rising, have selected the perfect lie that holds an unseen moby, have got the right fly on due to my encyclopaedic knowledge of bugs and water chemistry, have waded impeccably or stayed put on the bank - it all means nothing unless I can deliver the fly accurately and drag free. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't. Why don't I do something about it? Well, I still catch enough fish to keep me happy most of the time. Mind you if there was a Glasgow style casting club up here ......................... :lol:
Quote from: Alan on March 21, 2011, 11:22:45 PM
off topic maybe but this is some thread, power it on :8)
And it can be and is being discussed in a civil manner which is an enviable and unique aspect of this forum. :D
As we are no longer discussing casting wouldn't it be better to start a new thread somewhere else titled
'What makes a successful fly fisher?' :8) :worms
Quote from: fishtales on March 21, 2011, 11:40:56 PM
As we are no longer discussing casting wouldn't it be better to start a new thread somewhere else titled
'What makes a successful fly fisher?' :8) :worms
No. For pity's sake, no :)
Alex
I know Alex, but at least there would be little chance of it going off topic :shock: :lol:
Quote from: Alan on March 22, 2011, 12:04:39 AM
we can nail this.....how do i upload a pie chart :lol:
it answers the question, personal maybe, of how important each thing really is.
I think it's all interrelated. You can't get the fish without a fly, you can't get the fly to the fish without a cast (loose term), you can't catch the wary fish without stealth and so on.
And going back to casting - i totally agree it's situation dependent. In the salt you might need to be able to make a very long cast into a headwind, in NZ you may need to be pin point accurate, in Scotland you may need to have more knowledge of the habitat and fish behaviour as you can't see them and on the same token none of this may apply at different times.
Quote from: Alan on March 22, 2011, 12:35:14 AM
so, in Scotland you need to be more highly skilled in guessing whats going on perhaps, judging the invisible signs rather than the visible ones? i like the alchemy, my opinion is changing, casting may be a smaller component than i gave it credit.
I'm not sure, it's merely a thought, but it makes sense to me.
I still rate casting pretty highly, some of the fish I've caught over here I can't imagine a duff caster having come close to be honest. Many don't realise just how strong the wind blows here an awful lot of the time. Sometimes you have to cast from sitting on your arse behind a bush or lying on your front. Sometimes you need a long cast as there is no cover or way for you to get to the fish. In fact, it's the same as at home. It would be foolish to argue that a strong casting skill set can be a hinderence but there are definitely a few situations it can be a massive help.
Quote from: Alan on March 22, 2011, 12:35:14 AM
so, in Scotland you need to be more highly skilled in guessing whats going on
No you don't. That's exactly the point and why casting standards are low. There are so many fish in the water here it's just as difficult to fail as it is to succeed. :lol:
Quote from: fishtales on March 21, 2011, 11:56:58 PM
I know Alex, but at least there would be little chance of it going off topic :shock: :lol:
Has it gone off topic? Seems to me it hasn't really. It has broadened, certainly, but that's valid enough as it's all about the skills required in catching fish. I find it very interesting indeed and it seems to me it's what forums are about. You could not have this sort of discussion on most other forums without it descending into a slagging match.
Quote from: admin on March 22, 2011, 07:54:31 AM
Has it gone off topic? Seems to me it hasn't really. It has broadened, certainly, but that's valid enough as it's all about the skills required in catching fish. I find it very interesting indeed and it seems to me it's what forums are about. You could not have this sort of discussion on most other forums without it descending into a slagging match.
Ah **** off, casting is the only skill you need, everyone else that says otherwise is wrong. :makefun :worried
Sorry, thought I was elsewhere for a while there :lol:
Quote from: scotty9 on March 22, 2011, 08:19:25 AM
Ah **** off, casting is the only skill you need, everyone else that says otherwise is wrong. :makefun :worried
Sorry, thought I was elsewhere for a while there :lol:
Pull your neck in shit for brains!
Long casts make up for little pricks.
Actually when you distill it down there is a huge amount of info. in this thread. What various people consider to be important, even most important. I believe fly choice is probably the least important of all variables, as long as you are in the ball park that's usually good enough. Refusals may have more to do with bad presentation / drag than pattern choice. Flies may well be dragging and the angler does not even know it. I think Wyatt called it "micro drag". Good line control i.e. casting skills can help overcome this. That said if you screw up on one fish there will be another shoal round the corner, so why bother? :lol:
QuoteActually when you distill it down there is a huge amount of info. in this thread
Indeed, it's been fascinating to follow.
Definitely Alan, sometimes there is no feasible/practical way to get close.
Came across a random quote on a sexyloops signature that ties in well with some things that have been said:
Wise indeed was George Selwyn Marryat when he said: "its not the fly; its the driver"
page 193,
GEM Skues,The Way Of A Trout With A Fly
Hi Andy.
If you believe the 5 essentials are not essential you will still be able to cast but it will be inefficient
1/If the rod tip does not follow a slp and lets say follows a concave rtp it will cause a tailing loop etc etc so it is inefficient. You may be casting with a convex rtp ie big loops. Try casting that one into a wind.
2/Try casting a long line with a short stroke/arc. It will fail. Inefficient
3/You agree
4/If you are putting power in and the cast is working It must have been put in at the right point. So this one works. Efficient
5/You agree. Efficient
So in summary if you put all 5 essentials together it makes the cast more efficient IMO.
I personally follow a different/same set of principals.
Regards
Brian
how concave does the rtp have to be in order to achieve the perfect tailing loop?
Quote from: Alan on March 24, 2011, 12:59:45 PM
you can learn a lot via beer and copious pish talking :lol:
We bow to your expertise and achievements in these areas, though I never realised that YOU required the former to accomplish the latter !! :D
T
Quote from: Alan on March 24, 2011, 12:59:45 PM
i think the simplest way is to digest the 5 things over a few beers with at least one casting geek, discuss the ins and outs of each then compile your own 5 points in a way that makes sense to you, you can learn a lot via beer and copious pish talking :lol:
Ok what Pub? Or is that going to be another 11 page debate :lol:
Brian
Quote from: Teither on March 24, 2011, 04:42:47 PM
We bow to your expertise and achievements in these areas, though I never realised that YOU required the former to accomplish the latter !! :D
You mean you have not experienced the pleasure of Alan with a drink? Last summer he and Alex were at my place for a couple of nights when we fished the Don. I noticed Alan was on the cheap 50% proof lager. Aye, he can certainly talk and the fact he also caught the biggest fish didn't exactly hush him up much either. :lol:
Quote from: admin on March 24, 2011, 01:49:25 PM
how concave does the rtp have to be in order to achieve the perfect tailing loop?
It's the degree to which the tip rises after the dip that will achieve the perfect tailing loop. You can really emphasise your tailing by thrusting the rod up at the end of the stroke.
Quote from: scotty9 on March 24, 2011, 11:03:36 PM
It's the degree to which the tip rises after the dip that will achieve the perfect tailing loop. You can really emphasise your tailing by thrusting the rod up at the end of the stroke.
Time you were back on your native soil, young man ! All this time spent among the sheep is doing your moral compass no good at all. :lol:
T
Ha brilliant! Had not noticed the alternative side of the wording :lol: I'll be home rather soon actually :shock: About 3 months on the button.
Quote from: admin on March 24, 2011, 10:16:59 PM
You mean you have not experienced the pleasure of Alan with a drink? Last summer he and Alex were at my place for a couple of nights when we fished the Don. I noticed Alan was on the cheap 50% proof lager. Aye, he can certainly talk and the fact he also caught the biggest fish didn't exactly hush him up much either. :lol:
Admin,
It's hard to tell whether it's the drink, whatever else [?], or just his particular normality that causes the effects we all notice in him. When he arrives at the pond of a Sunday morning he really is a sight to behold. Passers-by move to the other side of the road. When he begins his wittering club members also move to the other side of the road ! :) Unfortunately, he often follows ! :lol:
T
Alan there ain't a pub in Europe I couldn't get home from.
I use a system that was shown to me,I do not know who owns them so I make no claims to ownership. They are as follows.
L= Line
A= Arc
P= Power
P= Pause
S= Stroke.
If one of the above increases they all increase and visa versa. It is easy to Teach and understand. IMO.
Brian
Quote from: Brian Mcg on March 25, 2011, 11:48:16 PM
Alan there ain't a pub in Europe I couldn't get home from.
I use a system that was shown to me,I do not know who owns them so I make no claims to ownership. They are as follows.
L= Line
A= Arc
P= Power
P= Pause
S= Stroke.
If one of the above increases they all increase and visa versa. It is easy to Teach and understand. IMO.
Brian
I've heard that too Brian, don't know where from - could have been you down at Tweedswood? Can't remember! I like it anyway.
Another goody that Andrew taught me, not in terms of the principles but what you do to make a cast:
Peel - smoothly lift line from water, speeding up into backcast.
Pluck - that final acceleration into the stop
Pause - well, you know, the pause!
Power - the whole forward cast
Found that to work well when teaching a newbie, 4 simple steps to get going.
Scott, Peel is a great word IMO . You need to keep loads of words/phrase's in your head as during a lesson you may need more than one.
How many times have you given a lesson but the pupil is still not getting it? Then you say one thing and bang it registers.
Allan I must at some point head down to The Clyde to buy my ticket. Maybe a good chance to meet up have a cast and a pint after. I am lucky as my mate doesn't drink so he is a" designated driver"(he loves titles).
Brian
Quote from: Ardbeg on March 26, 2011, 11:46:59 AM
I still can't understand why "flickinging an apple off the tip of the rod" could help anybody,
Obvious enough really. Have you ever attempted to cast with an apple attached to your rod tip? If you had you would know getting rid of the apple is essential. :roll:
FFS smurf, pay attention........................... :lol:
Quote from: Ardbeg on March 26, 2011, 12:34:37 PM
An apple on the rod tip would make it bend so much that I'd likely break the rod trying to flick it off.
Ah but then that's when action and weight comes in.
Obviously a Granny Smith require a less stiff rod than a big Bramley cooking apple.
It's all about getting the ERN right (Effective Rosacea Number) because as everyone knows apples are members of the rose family of plants
Quote from: Alan on March 26, 2011, 12:56:07 PM
Peel, Pluck, Pause, Power sounds nice to everyone
For sure.
ERN can be so confusing. Take for example a 5 weight TCX, most would rate it as a 7. Sage may be using rowan berries or rose hips to perform these measurements. Yes, still Rosacea, but bound to give a
radically different
Effective
Rosacea
Number from a French golden delicious. The entire system is a bit messy really. Especially if the fruit is overripe.
Quote from: admin on March 26, 2011, 01:39:07 PM
For sure.
ERN can be so confusing. Take for example a 5 weight TCX, most would rate it as a 7. Sage may be using rowan berries or rose hips to perform these measurements. Yes, still Rosacea, but bound to give a
radically different Effective Rosacea Number from a French golden delicious. The entire system is a bit messy really. Especially if the fruit is overripe.
And just to make it even more confusing, everyone likes their apple at a different ripeness level. And we have to take into account the recovery speed of the rod as indicated by its AA - Apple Acceleration
Absolutely Scott and it?s also worth remembering that while red apples are fine in casting practice situations, when actually fishing the more subdued green apple is the better choice.
Quote from: Alan on March 26, 2011, 01:58:42 PM
sexyloops, the revolutionary home of technical casting stuff pays very little heed to 'feel'
I disagree with that Alan. They have considered it and dismissed it outright as undefinable
I think that's because of their science based approach. They look for tangible things that are measurable and have no maybe this/maybe that element.
Feel to me is different than it is to you because I'm using my nervous system, not yours. Just like eyesight. Also what I interpret as feel is going to be different.
True Scott. Things like ERN can only ever be a guideline. What feels right for you might not be as good for me.
"Feel" is an odd one. Years ago I had to replace the handle on a rod after a dod took a liking to the superfine style handle of a favourite rod. I replced the handle with a thicker full wells handle - a shape I normally like but the rod felt quite quite different, I put it down to a different grip point and slightly heavier handle and reel seat.
Feel also changes with mood IMO. That's why I have loads of rods. Some days A feels better than B, some days it does not. :D
Quote from: Alan on March 26, 2011, 10:07:15 PM
i dont go for all that subjective conjecture on it, we all need to feel the rod unload, flex etc, it matters little if we think we all feel things in different ways, we still have to communicate roughly whats supposed to happen in terms of what you see and what it feels like, peel, pluck etc,
discussing it on forums appears to be strangely impossible but communicating it with even raw beginners is not difficult, actually its a whole lot quicker and easier than casting terms.
Why did the chicken cross the road ? Same reason as the rest of us !
T
Quote from: Alan on March 26, 2011, 10:26:18 PM
and yip chickens even feel the same things, we all feel the same thing when poked with a stick, why fishing rods make things more complicated is one of lifes great mysteries, i think its just the words that change.
In principle yes but in reality probably not. How do you communicate what you feel especially if you are not quite sure what that feeling is? And what you think you are feeling is definitely open to interpretation by your brain!
It's like when you go to the doctor with an injury and they ask you to describe the pain or where exactly it is and you say I don't really know. It's in that general area in the leg somewhere and it's a sort of dull ache, or is there a wee bit of pressure or maybe a stab and so on.
It's tricky :lol:
Quote from: BARFLY on March 27, 2011, 12:53:29 AM
Can you overthink this whole casting subject?
Oh yeah. Absolutely.
Still, it does play a huge part in fly fishing. No other form of fishing involves so much time spent actually casting, so it follows that to get really good at fishing, we really should look at improving our casting. That in my opinion, applies to everyone who wants to be a good angler and is why I go out of my way to spend time listening and learning from great casters, like Andrew Toft, Peter Anderson and others.
Now, "casting" and "fishing":
I was told (by someone who guided him) that the late Mel Krieger was a wonderful caster, but nothing special as a fisherman, so to me it makes sense to learn the "casting" stuff and use what you have learned. Store it away in your head for when you need it, but keep it in a fishing context unless you want to enter casting competitions or something.
To put it in golfing terms, no point in being a great driver if you can't putt :)
Alex
I see this topic is starting to drift away from fruit. That's typical of forums though, 100 or so posts and the true meaning is lost. :lol:
[attachimg=1]
Nice diagram Fred. It is core to all that has been said before :)
Alex
Indeed Alex. Although I have heard it said that Sage rods are better tested with onions, but that can sometimes knock the stuffing out of a rod.
Quote from: Alan on March 27, 2011, 10:36:50 PM
ah you scoff but i recall alex, scott and i once having a serious lengthy discussion about whether actually doing this with a marshmallow would work or not, alex was adamant that it would just flop off and he got quite obstinate about it :lol:
apparently sage and onion is a perfectly balanced combination :D
I believe my view was it would just stick. :)
And you guys are making me hungry!!!!
Quoteah you scoff but i recall alex, scott and i once having a serious lengthy discussion about whether actually doing this with a marshmallow would work or not, alex was adamant that it would just flop off and he got quite obstinate about it Laughing
Did Vicky from the Viccy or was it Flygirl, not try this out and find I was right? :8)
Alex
Quote from: admin on March 27, 2011, 06:52:14 PM
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Re various apple varieties and rod actions.
i can see where your heading with this, but maybe instead of rod actions it would be better to think in terms of Malling root stocks for the correct specie scions and their inherent bearing abilities combined with the optimum height for yield and convenience of cropping.
You wouldnt want to cast and control a team of heavy nymphs on a Malling 3 would you?
Quote from: haresear on March 28, 2011, 01:51:29 AM
Did Vicky from the Viccy or was it Flygirl, not try this out and find I was right? :8)
Alex
Was there not a similarly related issue that involved finding grapes everywhere for a period afterward?
Was there not a similarly related issue that involved finding grapes everywhere for a period afterward?
Yes Scot, Alan told Flygirl (Vicky) to put a grape on the tip of her rod and flick it off.
Only Alan could come away with that exercise :makefun poor lass was finding grapes all over here
living room.
All the best
Gary :D
Quote from: Alan on March 28, 2011, 05:43:01 PM
and yes i am responsible for a young woman having a frusrating evening trying to wipe the place down in a very sticky flat.
Takes me back :D
Quote from: fishtales on March 21, 2011, 11:04:43 AM
If the new angler is having difficulties then I would agree that having someone to mentor him whether an experienced friend or a professional instructor is necessary or he ends up not enjoying the experience and giving up. For the more experienced angler I think the ones who take the lessons are the ones who feel they want to take their enjoyment a stage farther, like someone taking the advanced driving test.
My personal look on it is that it doesn't really enhance the fishing and that casting, and learning all the intricacies that that entails, is actually a separate skill. I realise though that if there weren't those dedicated to learning these skills then there wouldn't be anyone to give lessons to the new anglers, much the same as driving instructors. Learning the basic cast is all that most new anglers want. If they can get the fly where they want it and catch fish they are generally happy with that and as they progress they learn new casts that suit there style for the situations they are in at that moment in time. Although an integral part of fly fishing casting, that is advanced casting and all that entails, is actually separate from fishing and is really two different skills.
Thanks as a new angler I agree with what you have said.