I don't visit fly forums often, far too much going on here, but this thread was brought to my attention by one of our members and is interesting.
http://www.flyforums.co.uk/casting/244370-rod-loading.html (http://www.flyforums.co.uk/casting/244370-rod-loading.html)
There's quite a few things that come out of that thread but I probably shouldn't discuss them in public! :)
Quote from: scotty9 on May 08, 2012, 12:13:47 PM
There's quite a few things that come out of that thread but I probably shouldn't discuss them in public! :)
Really! :shock:
Great thread though eh? All you ever needed to know about rod loading and some!
Gave up at the graphs, only so much Higher Physics 1975 that I can remember.....
Totally useless! Some of it makes sense if you really want to go in depth about it but really all you have to know was said right at the start - it bends :8)
People should focus on creating a loop, the loop is what makes fly casting work and gets your fly out there, not focus on rod loading. It draws attention to the wrong thing. In an example of teaching someone to make a cast or someone figuring it out for themselves - you would not focus on bending the rod, you focus on making a cast that makes a loop. It's a simple change of focus that makes all the difference.
Teach someone what to do with a rod to make a loop, not how to bend it. In fact I think you can do a pretty good job of explaining fly casting without even using the term rod loading. You only need to show that certain things are possible because the rod bends. How it bends, how much it should or shouldn't bend etc doesn't need to be there without getting into geekery. My thoughts anyway :)
- -
The main problem the FFF casting forum has is that some folks do ask basic questions and seem to be genuinely looking for help but they get three million wrong answers, three million right answers and a whole load of in betweens. They then are probably even more confused than when they started. Fly casting advice is best done face to face when it can be explained in simple terms and also shown, it's the visual aspect that lacks on a forum. Great if you want to natter on about geeky stuff amongst a lot of people familiar with jargon and physics concepts but not much use for someone just trying to get a handle on it.
Quote from: scotty9 on May 08, 2012, 05:15:07 PM
Totally useless!
Not totally, surely! :lol:
Quote from: scotty9 on May 08, 2012, 05:15:07 PM
Some of it makes sense
Some of it made a lot of sense to me Scott and dovetailed perfectly with quite a few theories of my own and a few others I could mention but won't. :8)
It made a lot of sense to me except for the nasty kicks at the end of the cast some were talking about. Can't say I have ever felt that.
Quote from: Alan on May 08, 2012, 06:28:56 PM
it left me with a nice stretched line with a permanently curved tip,
Congratulations you are now a fly line designer :lol:
I have to admit to failing to see the point coming out the thread! :lol:
James's point is valid and I think he has a very good point that people do vary their input to reach a sweet spot as such. I'm not sure how on earth to start defining the sweet spot mind you! Other than that seems to be a debate over the wrong use of the word overloaded and a debate about a line that had a manufacturing fault.
Alan - I've been there too when I first started. Yeah, yeah just stretch the line... next thing you know you have a permanently coiled line, those bastards ruined my line :lol:
Alan (aka new fly line designer),
Can you make me one of these curved tip lines so I can cast round corners? A bit of kick would be fine too if you could build it in. Handy for dislodging any grass or heather picked up on the back cast. :lol:
Quote from: admin on May 08, 2012, 07:06:33 PM
Alan (aka new fly line designer),
Can you make me one of these curved tip lines so I can cast round corners?
Easy peasy, round corners! Pah! 90 degrees a doddle, 180 degrees requires my (somewhat expensive) two days, intensive tuition. Straight ahead, just where you want it is the tricky bit. Heather, grass, bracken, leaves, twigs, branches, trees, the dug, fishing companion, rocks, and on one spectacular occasion the car I can land you in, no problem, no graphs, no physics, just pure talent. Rod loading- who needs it?
Quote from: Inchlaggan on May 08, 2012, 07:14:27 PM
Easy peasy, round corners! Pah! 90 degrees a doddle, 180 degrees requires my (somewhat expensive) two days, intensive tuition. Straight ahead, just where you want it is the tricky bit. Heather, grass, bracken, leaves, twigs, branches, trees, the dug, fishing companion, rocks, and on one spectacular occasion the car I can land you in, no problem, no graphs, no physics, just pure talent. Rod loading- who needs it?
That's an impressive record Ken. Now of you could just build in a wee "kick" to the left or right you'd be onto a winner for sure. :lol:
I haven't looked and won't be bothering to. Very little on that place interests me. Even when people ask simple material questions or the like you seldom seem to get a straight answer...
No pun intended
(http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/infotrontof/infotrontof1103/infotrontof110300006/8997840-yellow-road-sign-graphic-with-arrow-pointing-down.jpg) :lol: :lol: :lol:
Quote from: Alan on May 08, 2012, 06:28:56 PM
swiftly moving on...some arse once told me a good way to get the coils out of a line is to tie the tip end to a tree and stretch it, worked a treat and left me with a nice stretched line with a permanently curved tip,
I seem to remember someone getting advice of that nature on FFF. Come to think of it his name might have been Zoomer :lol:
Seriously though, another peach was hammer a nail through the end of your fly line into the top of a fence post before stretching :roflmao
I also remember a thread where someone suggested that you carry your fly line to the river on an old bike wheel to prevent unwanted coils when fishing but the best ever was seeing a guy on the riverbank carrying his fly line on a bicycle wheel :shock:
Some mothers do 'ave 'em :)
Quote from: guest on May 08, 2012, 10:56:09 PM
I also remember a thread where someone suggested that you carry your fly line to the river on an old bike wheel to prevent unwanted coils when fishing but the best ever was seeing a guy on the riverbank carrying his fly line on a bicycle wheel :shock:
Some mothers do 'ave 'em :)
Mug! :lol:
Some lines are so long and so bulky they need reels that are the diameter of a bicycle wheel.
Just looked at the fff post. How unhelpful can you get?
Any way I now know how to get a curved tip on ma fly line. If your casting upstream do you need one for the right bank and another for the left? Hmmmmm studied maths and physics at uni but struggling with this one.
Cheers
Paul
Quote from: bibio1 on May 08, 2012, 11:09:35 PM
If your casting upstream do you need one for the right bank and another for the left?
Tricky, but the best solution is probably to get one that kicks erratically. That way the fish is never going to be absolutely certain which side you are coming from. That has to be an advantage and a unique selling point.
QuoteAny way I now know how to get a curved tip on ma fly line. If your casting upstream do you need one for the right bank and another for the left? Hmmmmm studied maths and physics at uni but struggling with this one.
Would you not just turn the rod upside down?
A
Quote from: Alan on May 09, 2012, 12:15:12 AM
a drift free drag is everything'
I can relate to that!
I'm quite convinced that even the top casters don't know what they are really doing half the time, there's far too much going on. I'm just happy that I can get the fly and line where I want it, how I want it: that to me is a perfect cast.
Quote from: Malcolm on May 09, 2012, 10:07:00 AM
I can relate to that!
I'm quite convinced that even the top casters don't know what they are really doing half the time, there's far too much going on. I'm just happy that I can get the fly and line where I want it, how I want it: that to me is a perfect cast.
100%. There is just no way anyone can beat the current everytime with a leader and fly line, the water is just too complex for even the best to manage to create some amazing layout.
I think drag free drifts come from 2 things mainly - knowing a little about leader setup and having some casting skills to engage in a hell of a bit or trial and error! There's no substitute for working it out on the water, not to mention every 5 yards the water is completely different :) That's where the fun is.
Quote from: Malcolm on May 09, 2012, 10:07:00 AM
I'm quite convinced that even the top casters don't know what they are really doing half the time
Perhaps more time on water and less on grass would help with the understanding?
I stopped practising on grass, 1. because it is mind numbingly boring to do and 2. because I thought I was doing OK until I tried to translate what I had "learned" in the fitbaw pitch environment to water which showed up just how little good it had done me in a blinding flash of light. Now I fully accept this might not be the case for everyone and that I probably got it all wrong to start with, however had I cut out the grass step I would have been no worse off.
I stopped discussing stuff like this publicly, it just gets some people far too excited and then they behave like arseholes.
TL
MC
Quote from: Mike Connor on May 09, 2012, 11:58:41 AM
it just gets some people far too excited and then they behave like arseholes.
Yes, you are right. Both publicly and by PM! It's weird how precious some folk can be and how fragile egos can shatter. :lol:
The worst cast I have ever seen (line coiled like a Slinky, 20ft from the boat, top section of rod detached and floating just out of reach, reel fallen off the rod) did not catch a fish- that in itself surprised me!
We got the reel properly fixed, tried to stretch the line (to little effect) and bound the busted ferrule with nylon.
He continued to cast the top section quite respectable distances, and had three or four fish in the afternoon.
A clear indication of a well-loaded rod, IMHO.
Stretching PVC coated line is one of the worst things you can do. It will very seriously reduce the life of the line. If you want to remove memory ( which is a property of ALL thermoplasctics) just dip the the line in very warm water then lay it out to cool. It will then be straight and stay like that for a while. If you are stuck on the river, then putting it in hot coffee and then having a cast with it will also work. It also works for nylon. If you straighten out nylon casts by using very warm water and then laying them out straight to cool. Then store them in the fridge afterwards, even when coiled after straightening they will not have any kinks as memory retention is also caused by increased temperatures when the plastic concerned is stored. The absolute worst thing you can do is leave line on a reel in a car window in the sun. It will be like a coiled spring when you come to use it. However, the methods described above will also work to straighten it out again.
All that stretching will achieve is severe damage to the line coating. Loads of people continue to recommend it though and get quite incensed when you tell them how silly it is.
TL
MC
Quote from: Mike Connor on May 09, 2012, 05:25:24 PM
The absolute worst thing you can do is leave line on a reel in a car window in the sun. It will be like a coiled spring when you come to use it.
Is that only if you let it cool again Mike? My experience with normal lines in hot temperatures is they go so limp they are unusable hence the tropical coatings.
Interesting post, I've never tried heat to straighten out fly lines, then again most of mine don't have any noticable memory! Used the trick on leaders though, works a treat.
Quote from: Alan on May 09, 2012, 06:12:59 PM
i thought that was the whole point of forums :lol:
What? To discuss stuff or to behave like arseholes? :lol:
depends on the forum, and of course whether you find graphs useful as a casting aid :lol:
line memory is a strange one, it appears to be common but like scott i don't see it, i'd guess those that get it have small arbour reels or use the dreaded mono core line.
Quote from: scotty9 on May 09, 2012, 06:24:06 PM
then again most of mine don't have any noticable memory! Used the trick on leaders though, works a treat.
Same here I have not had memory probs with fly lines for years. The Uk lines made by northern sports and 22m are fine for memory (Barrio mine and Pirates) . No probs at all. I also find that the Leeda Profile leaders do not coil at all and use them pretty much exclusively now.
Quote from: scotty9 on May 09, 2012, 06:24:06 PM
Is that only if you let it cool again Mike? My experience with normal lines in hot temperatures is they go so limp they are unusable hence the tropical coatings.
Interesting post, I've never tried heat to straighten out fly lines, then again most of mine don't have any noticable memory! Used the trick on leaders though, works a treat.
Yes partly, it also depends on how you let it cool. It has to be straight when it is cooled if you want it to stay straight. This applies to any thermoplastic, it is an intrinsic property of thermoplastics.
Lines going limp in hot conditions is related, this is because the plasticity range also depends on the temperature of the plastic. Referred to as glass transition temperature "Tg", specific for each plastic or mixture. This is also a little more complex with PVC coated lines as the PVC is treated with "softeners" to make it flexible under specific temperature ranges in the first place. In some cases the plasticity range is quite small. In very cold weather the line will be like wire, and in hot weather like a noodle. Special plastic / softener mixes are required for different temperature ranges.
For more information on that;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoplastic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoplastic)
All plastic lines have memory, it is a property of the plastic. But a tendency to coil etc is exacerbated considerably by adverse conditions. You can remove the memory completely by placing a line in hot water for a minute or two, and then allowing it to cool while straight. As long as it stays cool ( fridge) it will not coil again even if you roll it up tightly. This also works for nylon and any other thermoplastic materials. Same applies to nylon and copolymer leaders.
The memory is "programmed" by position and temperature. You can also deprogram or "format" it the same way in reverse.
"stretching" or otherwise deforming such lines merely damages them, and usually quite severely. The usual result is a mass of fine cracks in the coating which then leads to other problems.
TL
MC
Quote from: Alan on May 09, 2012, 06:12:59 PM
i thought that was the whole point of forums :lol:
Depends on the forum and the people involved.
TL
MC
Yesterday when I was on the river I kept a half-eye on the amount of line I was actually using to load the rod. I use a leader varying from about 17ft (calm conditions) down to about 11ft for windy conditions. Yesterday about 15ft.
I was normally casting about 5-8 yards of line only. This giving the best balance of distance from the fish and line control. I don't think I ever exceeded 12 yards of line out of the tip - and that was for just one fish. Perhaps when choosing a river rod we should discipline ourselves to test at at 5-10 yards and let the occasional longer cast be compromised rather than the other way around.
I think it depends on the river Malcolm. On the lower Don at Parkhill for example the river is very wide in places, meaningful wading is impossible and sometimes very long casts are required to cover the only fish that may be rising. Very often there I find it impossible to cover a fish due to distance / high banks. A better caster would probably do better. In general though you are right most of the time in the places I fish I have a lot less than 40 feet out inc. leader. The law of diminishing returns comes into play here. I do wonder if it is worth spending the time perfecting your casting for these odd occasions or just accepting you can't get them all and moving on. :D
Quote from: admin on May 10, 2012, 10:37:41 AMThe law of diminishing returns comes into play here. I do wonder if it is worth spending the time perfecting your casting for these odd occasions or just accepting you can't get them all and moving on. :D
Interesting comment. You do need a basic level of casting competence in order to be able to fish well, but I don't think there is much point in making a fetish of it,( Unless you want to! :) ). The vast majority of my river fish are caught at less than thirty feet away, and there, stealth and presentation is of much greater importance than being able to double haul thirty yards.
Also, not everybody even has the time required for these things. Many barely have time for fishing and they don't want to "waste" it learning a lot of stuff.
TL
MC
I agree to a point Malcolm although I'd take it further and say the rod doesn't really matter. You could give any rod to any good caster and they'll do the same thing... it also depends if you have the luxury of multiple rods for different situations, many people only have one or two rods to cover everything.
Mike - agree also but the big difference in a good caster compared to a duff caster is adaptability to different types of fishing. You can't take a duff caster who does well fishing small streams to fishing saltwater flats for example... but if they're not going to be doing things like that then it don't matter a hoot! :)
Quote from: scotty9 on May 10, 2012, 01:57:29 PM
Mike - agree also but the big difference in a good caster compared to a duff caster is adaptability to different types of fishing. You can't take a duff caster who does well fishing small streams to fishing saltwater flats for example... but if they're not going to be doing things like that then it don't matter a hoot! :)
When you do these things you are already beyond the fringe of anything approaching "normal" humanity anyway! :)
TL
MC
Interesting stuff Alan. I really have no idea how far my fly goes at my max. cast. I guess I should measure it and find out to get some idea if it is even practical to strive for more distance. Perhaps some of these fish at Parkhill are just too far away to cover in a reasonable subtle or effective manner.
Quote from: admin on May 12, 2012, 06:59:11 PM
Perhaps some of these fish at Parkhill are just too far away to cover in a reasonable subtle or effective manner.
If it's over about 55' on the river I'd reckon chances are there's not a hope in hell you'll get any sort of reasonable drift to tempt the fish in the first place. Some are just too far away... Sometimes they are too far away at 35' if the currents are shocking or your casting space is limited...
We're taking a measuring tape fishing next time :lol:
You should just get yourself closer to the fish! :) I have to say though, good job... never mind the cast, just hooking the bugger at that range with slack is impressive :8)
Quote from: Alan on May 13, 2012, 12:45:26 AM
only place i know on the Clyde its possible, stupid, pointless but possible :lol:
I like it :8)