A wierd thing about casting distance

[Traditionalist]

A fully taught line from rod tip to loop may still land before it turns over.

For the record I agree tension is very important but it's not the only thing that will get you the distance.

A taut line will only land if it is not aimed high enough.Tension is all that keeps a line in the air, regardless of the speed.

TL
MC

[Traditionalist]

Also just realised I've read the distance in relation to targetting a rising fish and thought dry fly. You want the fly landing with a straight leader for that, I hate any movement to the leader or line when I'm hoping for a rise to the fly. If you're going to be pulling flies it doesn't matter how they land like Sandy says. That's quite a big difference maker in casting distance terms IMO.

Hmmm.......one of the old adages from a few top casters who actually fished was, "learn how to cast a nice straight line and leader, and then never ever do it again while fishing!".

TL
MC

[scotty9]

Slack line dry fly on still water? Just as a general way of doing things? Ok.

If I place a line on the ground behind me bolt straight to my rod with the rod perpendicular to the line, now I start to make a cast and under acceleration the line is fully tight. I can now stop the rod and a loop will be formed as the line passes the rod. If the acceleration or speed imparted to the line was not sufficient to turn it over, then it wasn't enough. Increase the speed and you get there. Now I can see you could look at this as increasing the speed may lead to tension. But then tension in what? Between the fixed rod tip point and the unrolling loop?

I'm happy to be wrong if it can be explained to me - actually I'd welcome that as that is learning. This is the bit that really gets me:

If I make a cast and throw a dirty great hump mend into it to create a big pile of line in the middle of the bottom leg of the loop, the cast can still unroll. If we talk of tension in the loop face then surely it's unrolling because it is attached to a fixed point, the rod tip. I've just broken that fixed point by a pile of slack, yet it keeps going. That to me indicates the speed of the line moving forward is important.

[Traditionalist]

Tension is the only thing that keeps a line in the air, and a straight line path of the rod tip is the only way to do it.  ANY slack or rod tip deviation will cause problems ( also known as  "trick casts" !   )

The tension is between the rod  tip and the line loop which is unrolling.  The rod tip is a fixed point compared to the line  the moment you stop it, and this is what forms the loop. The better the stop, the better the loop. The line is taut against the rod tip.  Tension is maintained, even if  you shoot line, because the drag of the line you are shooting maintains the tension on the unrolling loop. 

If you relax tension at ANY point during the cast, prior to forming the loop, the line will fall to the ground, or not travel in a straight line.  The main trick is to increase the line tension, ( also commonly and incorrectly referred to as "line speed"), smoothly but constantly throughout the cast up to the point of forming the loop.  A haul on the line imparts a great deal of tension when it is applied.  This tension is what gives the increase in distance.  It is not "speed" as such. Although of course the greater the tension the more kinetic energy is generated, so the line flies further.

I have a mathematical model of it somewhere that I worked out a long time ago. I will try and find it and post it.

If anything is unclear, then ask again.  Once you understand this principle you will cast better and further, because you then know exactly what you are trying to do.

TL
MC

[Traditionalist]

Indeed, if you manage to "scrape the grass" with a low back cast you will increase the line tension on the forward stroke  and the line will go further.  Assuming you get everything else right as well. Setting an "anchor" with a spey cast does the same thing.  It doesn't speed the line up. it increases the tension. A haul increases the tension even more.

This is more or less useless for normal fishing. Even if you don't hang up, you will knacker your line pretty quickly.

TL
MC

[scotty9]

Mike - sorry I have only just realised you are talking about tension before the stop, I was talking about it after the stop.

Before the stop yes tension is everything but what that tension is doing is allowing you to impart speed to the line. We are on the same page with that. After I make the stop I can throw the rod in the direction of the unrolling loop if I want and the loop will keep going (I think, I'm going to try this tomorrow).

My argument was based on after the stop, it's the speed in the line that keeps it travelling out - and I whole heartedly agree that it's tension making the cast that allows you to do that. When you mention hauling, yes your haul adds tension and that tension adds increased speed of the line in the direction of the cast.

Both tension and speed are important, it is not tension alone that leads to more distance. Distance is speed x time,  tension during the cast allows you to add more speed. It is the speed imparted to the line that ultimately gives it the momentum to move forward.

I fully understand tension before the loop is formed, in fact that's my holy grail when I'm casting far, get the backcast as tight as possible to allow all force to go to increasing speed of the line as I start pulling it forward rather than taking up slack. 

I do think that we are on the same page, I just got confused with which elements we were meaning.

[scotty9]

Indeed, if you manage to "scrape the grass" with a low back cast you will increase the line tension on the forward stroke  and the line will go further.  Assuming you get everything else right as well. Setting an "anchor" with a spey cast does the same thing.  It doesn't speed the line up. it increases the tension. A haul increases the tension even more.

This is more or less useless for normal fishing. Even if you don't hang up, you will knacker your line pretty quickly.

TL
MC

More time to think about this in between studying  I really should start going to bed earlier mind you, now the guys I fish with can see why I really struggle with mornings!

Catching the grass will slow down the line and cause a wave in the leader. Neither wanted. Have you seen the effects of a cast that ticks the ground compared to one that doesn't on a distance cast? It will either collapse the cast (which at a certain moment in time there would have been great tension), or it will send an awful wave into the line that generally stops it turning over.

Before the stop

I see tension as facilitating the transfer of your casting energy to the entire length of line. The goal is getting that line to move as fast as possible for distance (I know that's only one element to a good distance cast, still have to consider loop shapes etc) and tension allows us to do this. The main forces on the line excluding gravity will be its own inertia and drag. If we increase tension we must be increasing the force applied to the line as these two forces are all we are pulling against. This increased force is increased acceleration of the rod resulting in a higher line speed in the direction of the cast.

At the end of the day it is momentum that results in the line travelling forward. Momentum is a product of mass and velocity. Tension allows us to impart velocity to the whole line from rod tip end to fly - this is difficult to achieve.  I agree you need both but speed is the goal and speed is created at the rod, tension allows the entire line to gain speed. http://leecummingsflyfishing.wordpress.com/2012/02/11/fly-casting-seen-through-line-tension-glasses/ Lee is very well respected as being an exceptional caster and one of the best instructors around. His thoughts on tension are about getting maximum speed into the entire portion of line in the direction you want it.

Paul Arden is the best distance caster I have seen in the flesh and his core goal is line speed.

After the stop

In terms of increasing tension after the stop, this will make the loop unroll faster but this is not what you are looking for for further distance. An unrolling because the top leg is travelling faster than the bottom leg, I agree this is due to tension, it's going to be immediately after the stop as the line first passes the rod tip, now the top is travelling faster than the bottom. The instant you start shooting line you are decreasing the tension, now imagine you increase it. If you increase tension on the bottom leg you are going to reduce ultimate distance and speed up how quickly the loop unrolls.

If I cast a head with equal length and weight as another but one has mono running line and one has normal fly line running line which will travel further? At the moment of release they will have exactly the same tension and exactly the same speed assuming an identical cast. The one with mono will travel further as it will not slow down as quickly, now is that because of less mass or less friction, either way there is less tension as there is less opposing force.

The tension of an anchor on a spey cast is to stop the line from slipping backwards thus allowing more force to be applied to the line in the direction of the cast. This is a great video. https://vimeo.com/26829591

That's my thoughts on tension and speed in a distance cast.

[Traditionalist]

I have cast and fished with quite a few first class casters over the years. Jack Martin, ( who really taught me how to cast properly many years ago now), Dick Swift, Paul Arden, and a few others.  There are differences in detail, but they all try for the same thing.  I think there are still problems with a lot of the terminology in general.

TL
MC

[burnie]

I used to fish the Eyebrook reserviour in Northamptonshire where Arthur Cove used to sell flies out the back of his car on the car park by the fishing hut.Many of the locals used to fish there for the browns in early season using a shooting head made from lead core line(now banned for safety reasons I'm told)they could shoot this contraption out sixty or seventy yards using a fly reel on a spinning rod.There would be a black fly on the point and a whisky fly on a dropper,I saw people get 40 or 50 stockies in a day before a catch limit was introduced.

[Traditionalist]

I thought a great deal about this once upon a time.  I think the main problem with softer rods is that you simply can not drive them fast enough.  This is much easier with a fast rod.  If you try to drive a slow rod too fast it will just bend more and not accelerate the line as well as a fast rod.

In theory a rigid stick should work best of all, but of course it wont, because the rod bend is what allows you to get the timing right.  You can cast with a rigid stick but the timing is absolutely critical, as you will lose tension easily. The rod bend allows you to maintain tension. 

Hope that made sense?

TL
MC