Overloaded

[scotty9]

Ok, I saw it posted in the other thread so I figured give it a bash.

What is overloaded in relation to a rod?

How do you notice it?

And what effect does it have on your cast?

From Malcolm's example in the other thread, a 7.5' #3/4 which is soft and slow was cast 99'. I wasn't the only one to hit these distances either, there were quite a few folks at that range - Malcolm, Willie, Craig if I remember right. If we compare this rod to a stiff and fast #5 rod casting a similar distance we can only presume this rod should have been overloaded going by how this term has been used. Yet the cast worked, in fact it went really fking far for a #3 line, maybe it was a #4, can't remember.

Is this overloaded?

[Wildfisher]

Definitely overloaded. That rod was not designed to land cricket players.

[Traditionalist]

Ok, I saw it posted in the other thread so I figured give it a bash.

What is overloaded in relation to a rod?

How do you notice it?

And what effect does it have on your cast?

From Malcolm's example in the other thread, a 7.5' #3/4 which is soft and slow was cast 99'. I wasn't the only one to hit these distances either, there were quite a few folks at that range - Malcolm, Willie, Craig if I remember right. If we compare this rod to a stiff and fast #5 rod casting a similar distance we can only presume this rod should have been overloaded going by how this term has been used. Yet the cast worked, in fact it went really fking far for a #3 line, maybe it was a #4, can't remember.

You can't "overload" a rod.  At some point it will simply cease to function properly or break.  You can overline softer rods very much more than stiffer rods without damaging them. If you can handle the slower action then you can cast almost as far.  Most people can't.

The only really practical limit for a rod is the total weight it can safely handle. This is of course dynamic and proportional to the speed you try to move the rod.

TL
MC

[Traditionalist]

i would have said the practical limit is when the effort to cast it becomes intolerable, this would vary  from person to person as it probably should if you think about it,

before it gets to the point of snapping you usually notice its not the most efficient way to go :lol:

Very few rods will break when being used to cast.  If you try to use them to lift sunken line with a jerk, or poke cows, beat bushes, fight off neds, etc. They well might.

A fly line is just a long  flexible weight. If you try to aerialise too much of a heavy line you will have problems, regardless of the rod you are using.

The same thing applies to any rod. If you try and cast a half pound weight with a match rod you will most likely have problems.  The trick is to find the optimum for a specific rod and purpose. ( Why I more or less exclusively use tailored heads for everything).  Once you have the weight and length you want, all you have to do is adjust the amount of force and your casting technique to suit whatever you are trying to achieve.

You can do a very simple test.  Get a few lead weights. use a fixed spool reel and light nylon.  Cast progressively incrementing weights until you notice the rod is struggling.  Too light a weight will also be noticeable immediately, even to a beginner.  Once you have found the "Sweet spot" this will be  about the same weight as the actual line weight you can cast.  Practically anybody can feel this immediately.

TL
MC

[scotty9]

I don't have the answer to my questions so take these observations how you will.

Fred -  :lol: A TCX can do anything  :lol: I don't know if that's what it is but knowing Paul it probably is!

No-one has yet defined overloaded but it's been put out there that you can't overload a rod apart from breaking it. A rod never ceases to function until it breaks IMO, as Mike hinted at - it's the guy holding it that ceases to be able to control it (sometimes).

Just as an aside for the stiff rod thing, the hydros is one of the stiffest I've tried for it's line class, and I've managed to use most stiff #5 weights. I've been casting it with #9 full lines, aerliasing a lot of line, which you can't cast slowly if you want to hold it up. It handles it fine. Bends right into the handle sure, but it works fine. A fly rod is bloody strong when flexed through it's curve; assuming no shocks (and nothing else goes wrong) it would be very hard to break. I know rods are broken casting but it's usually a twist of the blank or a loose ferrule that gets them.

The trick is to find the optimum for a specific rod and purpose. ( Why I more or less exclusively use tailored heads for everything).  Once you have the weight and length you want, all you have to do is adjust the amount of force and your casting technique to suit whatever you are trying to achieve. Totally agree, and again it comes back to the caster.

For fishing purposes, I personally think that all there is to it is that there comes a point as the rod increasingly bends (lets say as your typical fishing distance starts to increase) when the change you need to make to your actual casting movement to control the rod becomes so significant it is not worth it to remain comfortable when you're fishing. Change your rod to a stiffer one if that's what you need to do. I don't see this as being whatever overloaded is supposed to mean, I see it as the tool has reached its comfortable casting limit. It's kind of like a short bar chainsaw and a longer bar chainsaw, as the tree gets bigger they will both do the job but one will be more comfortable/easier to use. (Assuming your tree isn't too thick of course )

It's all about the caster and how they control the rod  :

Alan - feel is everything.

[Traditionalist]

For fishing purposes, I personally think that all there is to it is that there comes a point as the rod increasingly bends (lets say as your typical fishing distance starts to increase) when the change you need to make to your actual casting movement to control the rod becomes so significant it is not worth it to remain comfortable when you're fishing. Change your rod to a stiffer one if that's what you need to do. I don't see this as being whatever overloaded is supposed to mean, I see it as the tool has reached its comfortable casting limit. It's kind of like a short bar chainsaw and a longer bar chainsaw, as the tree gets bigger they will both do the job but one will be more comfortable/easier to use. (Assuming your tree isn't too thick of course )

It's all about the caster and how they control the rod  :

Alan - feel is everything.

Indeed.  This is THE major problem for beginners and many others. They can't feel anything much, if at all.  This is especially difficult with stiff fast rods and even more so at short range (I use the terms "stiff" and "fast" quite advisedly here, because they are different things altogether in my opinion. Stiff means "more resistant to bending"  and fast is the recovery speed of the rod, ( or should be).  I have no idea why these terms were mixed up like this.l It is confusing for everybody. "Just as "soft" and "slow" are also completely different things.

Of course the weight you cast affects the rod action considerably. Using a heavier line often gets beginners sorted out, but really they invariably have the wrong rod for what they are wanting to do. At the other extreme, with soft rods, too much power is used and people try to cast with a fast action. This wont work.

TL
MC

[Malcolm]

Scott,

That rod is a David Norwich.

Is a practical definition of overload when the performance of a rod goes down? I was well into that last week when I put a 7/8 mid-spey line (around 360-400grains) through a 7/8 weight trout rod. I could handle the line fine but the rod became a wet noodle. I shattered a Sage TCR last year when playing about with an ultra long belly line so I was reluctant to take it to the limit!

 

[Traditionalist]

This is another problem with people buying extremely light high end stiff rods for actually fishing.  They would be better suited with a heavier softer rod. At least they might be able to feel it doing something. The heavier rods are also better wind cutters, and the weight of the rod helps as well. 

Trying to force a very stiff rod with hardly any line out just doesn't work well at all. This does of course depend a lot on the weight range the rod will cast and what lines are used, but most I have seen over the years have been badly mismatched.

It's akin to using a sledgehammer to drive in a tack.  You might manage to do it, but it will be a terrible fart on! You would be better served with a tack hammer.

TL
MC

[Traditionalist]

Is a practical definition of overload when the performance of a rod goes down?

If you want to use the term "overloaded", then that is as good a definition as any. It just means the rod is outside of its comfort zone.

TL
MC

[scotty9]

I tried to keep away from interchanging stiff/fast and soft/slow as they are totally different things, I think it's rod marketers that have totally cocked this up. So many rods are marketed as fast action now, it's more of a buzz word whereas stiff is a buzz kill. Even if they may mean stiff rather than fast.

Definition of overload sounds fine to me Malcolm - I just think overloaded is a word that should be avoided fullstop, it makes people think of the wrong thing. I think your problem mentioned there is more prevalent spey casting for overhead casting. Maybe it is easier to compensate with a wider stroke in the air than from the water? I think you find this too given how far you can cast the softer rods in the air. I am guessing here, we should try it one day, just take a few rods and keep increasing the line weight on water and on the field.

I bet that TCR shattered from something that was already wrong with it. If they had an inherent problem distance casters would be breaking them left right and centre.

Mike - they shouldn't be forcing a stiff rod with hardly any line out anyway, that's the exact reason the cast won't work. They should learn how to cast a stiff rod properly. Tiny stroke, flick the loop off the tip, needs hardly any power or movement. It's almost possible to make the entire stroke with a squeeze of the hand. It's very easy to have far too big a stroke in this situation and why most people find it doesn't work, certainly most people that I've seen who have such a problem.

I do agree though that very stiff rods should be avoided by beginners, so should very soft rods. Both are a nightmare to control if you are learning. Outwith beginners people just have to dedicate a bit of time to learning how to cast anything and bobs your uncle, you'll have your preferences but you can make anything work.

No matter what it all comes back to the person, just learn how to use the tool. Once you know how to use the tool properly you will know what tool to select. If more people did this the world would be a wicked cool place of nice loops and people not going in tantrums over their latest rod purchase  :lol: