Having been experimenting now for two or three seasons and purchasing lots of different Tippett manufacturers can anyone recommend a good performing Tippett maknufacturer? I have spent lots of time ( and ££s) trying to find one that is resistant to kinks, tangles, wind knots, yet fine enough for trout fishing. Having tried many different types including expensive hi end fluorocarbons I am back thinking that my good old fasioned original drennan double strength may be as good as any!
Quote from: 13Fisher1 on June 27, 2012, 03:31:21 PM
Having tried many different types including expensive hi end fluorocarbons I am back thinking that my good old fasioned original drennan double strength may be as good as any!
It most likely is for most things. The cheapest coarse fishing nylon in the appropriate sizes works as well as anything. There are some differences, some is a little stiffer, some a little softer. I use this
http://www.mullarkeys.co.uk/fishing/lines/Monofilament/1/ (http://www.mullarkeys.co.uk/fishing/lines/Monofilament/1/)
( The Maxima Chameleon).
I have never found any advantage at all in various fluorocarbons etc etc.
TL
MC
Quote from: 13Fisher1 on June 27, 2012, 03:31:21 PM
I am back thinking that my good old fasioned original drennan double strength may be as good as any!
Depends what you are looking for I suppose. I still think green or clear Maxima is hard to beat for wet fly fishing and fine co-polymers like Rio good for dry fly. After recommendations from a few members I am trying making my own dry fly tapered leaders now and will be using Maxima for the butt section and tapers and Rio for the tippets. This is all on hold until my broken hand is better.
Stroft ABR (6lb BS) - Expensive (Dry fly fishing)
Drennan Sub Surface (Various Breaking strains but generally 4lb is good for most of the fishing I do, being a bandymeister) - Cheap (Non Dry fly fishing)
Tried the maxima but didnt get on with it at all.
Maxima Chameleon. Been using it for forty odd years. I've used other makes and never found anything that came near to making me change. Not even the Green or clear :)
For me it depends where I am fishing and what method I'm using.
Mostly I fish rivers and find Rio Powerflex (coplymer) serves me well for mainly dry flies and nymphs. It isn't cheap. Usually I stick with 5x (5lb), but will go lower if I have to.
I tried a thinner brand earlier this year and lost some big fish to breakages that I felt the Rio might have withstood. I had run out of the Rio at the time, but am now back on it and have landed a run of big fish on it, so that's what I'm sticking with. Tried and tested.
On the other hand, if I was fishing mainly wets, on a loch (which I rarely do) I would probably be using a standard nylon like Shakespeare Aerial, Maxima etc., with Fulling Mill fluorocarbon as a change in some circumstances.
Alex
Like a few others use
QuoteThe Maxima Chameleon
for most of my loch fishing & all off all be it limited Salmon & Sea Trout. It has high strength & good abrasion resistance. Have done for many years, have tried other brands & whilst most are suitable still favour Maxima. It's colour blends in well with our dark & sometime peaty waters. For river fishing & lowland clearer waters I now use Fulling Mill Sub Surface. It is a perfectly good nylon & does not let me down.
Now having said that I have been tinkering for a couple of seasons with Leeda leaders Profil & Selectacast.
One thing I will never used & I see one person mentioning it is Drennan Double Strength. Over the years I have seen countless fish lost due to breakages & knot failure. I remember Stan The Man bemoaning in a magazine some years back that he had "lost" nine fish & he was using Drennan . What I could not understand is why he did not stop using it in the first place but carried on. Simply would never contemplate using it & any similar types. Fluorocarbon I too have never liked & like a previous poster don't think that any advantage is to me gained by doing so.
Others mileage may vary & as it should be.
Tight Lines
I find all the co-polymer / double strength stuff utterly useless for pulling wet flies on lochs. There are pre-streched to get the diameter down, have next to no elasticity and thus break far too easily with shock if a fish happens to take as you are pulling. This is even worse with modern stiff rods. A disaster in fact.
For pulling wets loch-style 5 or 6lb Maxima is hard to beat. I don't like the brown stuff as it is very visible and I think it spooks fish in gin clear water. I use clear or green. Drennen sub surface green is good too. The thing that pisses me off most about Maxima is why on earth does it have to come on these massive spools?
I've been using powerflex for about four seasons. Recommended by a mate when I'd had enough of fluro its been fine, more so since I changed the knot I use with it.
Bought a few spools of this stuff
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Preston-Innovations-Reflo-Powerline-ALL-SIZES-AVAILABLE-/290504243591 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Preston-Innovations-Reflo-Powerline-ALL-SIZES-AVAILABLE-/290504243591)
Appears its impregnated with some glue resin or something and is very hard to break pulling with your hands, very hard. I've used it a few times and it held up nicely, problem was it seemed, in my hands anyway, not too clever at turning over a fly.
Funny how my notions change on what is best from season to season on the little details. Couple of seasons ago it was how small a diameter i could get away with, now its how large. After a storming start i went on a horrendous run of losing good fish to the extend I'm again undecided on what is best when playing them. Lost three that I thought were beat as I got them to the bank and then they shot into the undercut. 12 inches of taught line, no cushion, saw saw and their gone.
With that in mind I've been trying this stuff in 6.1lb.
http://www.rioproducts.com/tippet/freshwater/suppleflex/ (http://www.rioproducts.com/tippet/freshwater/suppleflex/)
I bought it on impulse in a wee shop now closed and I'm happy with it, and the troot don't seem to mind.
Quote from: 13Fisher1 on June 27, 2012, 03:31:21 PM
I have spent lots of time ( and ££s) trying to find one that is resistant to kinks, tangles, wind knots
Good luck with that one Fisher, let me know if you find something for wind knots, would save me a lot of grief fumbling about changing tippets during a rise :)
Mac
I use 2. For my salmon and sea trout fishing i use Steve Parton's Silver Creek 8lb or 10lb bs, it's made by Bayer and is probably the same as a dozen other brands manufactured by Bayer. I switched to this about 5 years ago and have never broken off in a salmon. I have had well over 100 salmon in the past 5 years so it has had a good test.
For trout fishing I have been using Hardy Copolymer since the late 90s and had one breakoff in all that time (sunk line on Loch Leven). It breaks above it's stated strain when wet and knotted unlike most other copolymers.
Quote from: buster1980 on July 01, 2012, 01:32:59 AM
Try froghair
whits froghair? :shock: is it finer thin bawhair? :lol:
Quote from: corriekiller on July 03, 2012, 03:48:32 PM
whits froghair? :shock: is it finer thin bawhair? :lol:
Its from the makers who brought you Frogs Fanny.
Quote from: Otter Spotter on July 03, 2012, 04:04:44 PM
Its from the makers who brought you Frogs Fanny.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
These days I mostly use fluro for wet and dry on the lochs, Grand Max or Airflo sightfree G3 cause its cheaper and seems just as good. But I used to only use Maxima Chamleon for years for both peaty hill lochs and clearer rivers. Now I'm likely to start with fluro but if I'm not catching or rising fish and not hooking I might switch to Maxima, clear, green or brown depending on water colour or now sunny it is. I havent done much river fishing recently so experience is on the lochs and I have turned a poor day around just by changing leader material. Ofcourse fluro is also good at getting flies deeper while Maxima keeps flies higher in the water which might be the reason.
Has anyone experience to report on Barrio Tapered leaders which may be similar to the likes of Leeda Selectacast ?? They cost about £4 for a pack of three.
I was recently given two 50m spools of the Japanese flouro Grand Max Soft Plus at 0.185mm diam for 8.2lbs which has been good so far.....but maybe not for a windy loch !! Seems to have some give and to knot well enough - but quite pricey.
Quote from: Bobfly on July 08, 2012, 02:17:09 PM
Has anyone experience to report on Barrio Tapered leaders which may be similar to the likes of Leeda Selectacast ?? They cost about £4 for a pack of three.
I was told by an angler I met on The Don they kinked readily, but to be fair that's a very common problem with cheap tapered leaders especially if you attach indicators. I have given up on all the cheepos and use Leeda Profil pending a move to trials with self tied leaders.
On the Irish Loughs the standard around Ballinrobe for L. Mask was/is Maxima Ultragreen at 0.24mm / 8lbs as it is a mono with the toughness needed for when the fish slashed at the bobfly and then headed down into the rocks towing three flies behind it, but I have been broken with it just the same! Feels a bit of hawser for anything else perhaps, but lots of folks do not seem to consider leader thickness as too important and even for Dartmoor streams some locals use it.....! Low cost - reliable - tough. 6lb Maxima is presumably a sound choice?
On the large wild lochs like Arkaig and Lochy I dont find having thick nylon puts the wild brownies off and sometimes you need it !
Quote from: Colliemore on July 08, 2012, 09:01:05 PM
On the large wild lochs like Arkaig and Lochy I dont find having thick nylon puts the wild brownies off and sometimes you need it !
Don't doubt this at all, weird when you think about it.
A trout's a trout, no?
Try 8lb brown maxima on the Clyde - good luck!
Is it all down to the suppleness of fine nylon, or does the diameter itself put fish off?
I'm one of the heavy nylon brigade even on the Clyde. I've now settled on 5lb bs minimum (and that's Hardy Copolymer which is thicker and stronger than Stroft of a similar stated b.s. - I've tested them).
There's a couple of reasons for this.
First I am 100% convinced that the reason a lot of people suffer break-offs is because flicking thin nylon across a trout's teeth cuts nylon. I put a post up about this some months ago. It seems to me that he thinner the nylon the worse it is.
Second is that although it is very hard to snap 4lb nylon on a direct pull, a big trout can snap even strong nylon if the line becomes drowned - let's say a big fish in a good current sinks a lot of line then heads upstream against the current at a rate of knots. It'll snap light nylon like weak thread. Don't get me wrong there is a compromise to be struck.
Every six weeks or so a catalogue from the Glasgow Angling Centre falls through the letterbox - which it did this morning, plus I had a look at their website. General market prices for assorted leader/tippet stuff come out as below for this selection if you try to even things up and convert to give an approx price per 100 meters from the various 30 yards and 100 yards and 100 meter spools.
Maxima nylon £5 for 100m
Maxima flouro £26
Riverge flouro £22
Grand Max flouro £21
Frog Hair flouro £36
Frog Hair copoly £16
Hardy copoly £10
Rio Powerflex copoly £10
Ya pays ya money - and yer takes yer choice....????
Quote from: Alan on July 09, 2012, 10:50:07 PM
for pulling wet flies you maybe need something heavier, not sure why though, are the fish bigger?
You're pulling in one direction, the fish is turning sharply in the other... it's the sudden stress which causes the break offs. Always, I'd say.
The only times I ever get broken are on the strike or when the tippet gets wrapped around an obstacle.
If sharp teeth were the culprit, we would expect more fish to be lost mid-fight.
Quote from: deergravy on July 10, 2012, 09:08:13 PM
The only times I ever get broken are on the strike
Me too. I have never been broken mid fight as far as I can recall unless there has been some screw up like the line getting jammed or tangled when a fish takes off. This is why I think double strength / fluorocarbon / co-polymers are useless if pulling flies. No elasticity, loads of break offs.
After some trial and error I use Wytchwood sub-surface for everyday loch fishing, it is good quality and cheap.
Standard nylon mono is tough as old boots, I think I should use it more often.
Fred mentions elasticity, that's what makes it stronger, in real-life, than yer fancy stuff.
All the same, I like being able to cast a small dry at big fish with 6 or 7 pounds b.s. - provided I dont bust them off on the strike!
All the fish in the videos of my May trip were caught on 5Lb Maxima Chameleon. We both use it all the time no matter whether we are fishing dry, wet, river or loch it is all the same. I fish a three fly cast with dry, wet and nymph on a 7# 10' rod, perhaps I'm doing something wrong :roll:
Quote from: fishtales on July 10, 2012, 10:05:32 PM
All the fish in the videos of my May trip were caught on 5Lb Maxima Chameleon. We both use it all the time no matter whether we are fishing dry, wet, river or loch it is all the same. I fish a three fly cast with dry, wet and nymph on a 7# 10' rod, perhaps I'm doing something wrong :roll:
No, you've got loch fishing cracked, and anyone who wants to refine their technique or tackle is wasting their time.
Quote from: fishtales on July 10, 2012, 10:05:32 PM
All the fish in the videos of my May trip were caught on 5Lb Maxima Chameleon. We both use it all the time no matter whether we are fishing dry, wet, river or loch it is all the same. I fish a three fly cast with dry, wet and nymph on a 7# 10' rod, perhaps I'm doing something wrong :roll:
Doubtful, beyond a certain point you realise that there is little point in wasting time and money on what may or may not be "refinements". If your setup works as you want it to, then there is little to be gained by trying all sorts of other stuff. Most unlikely that you will catch a single fish more as a result, indeed, you might well catch fewer fish, because some stuff you try wont be as good.
TL
MC
Quote from: deergravy on July 09, 2012, 09:39:21 PM
Don't doubt this at all, weird when you think about it.
A trout's a trout, no?
Try 8lb brown maxima on the Clyde - good luck!
Is it all down to the suppleness of fine nylon, or does the diameter itself put fish off?
A trout might still be a trout yes, in general 8lb maxima would be no use dry fly fishing on the Clyde, but drifting in a nice wave on a loch with trout that might never have seen a fly before thats the difference. That fly could be a size 8 Loch Ordie with legs, always give them something big on the top dropper to bring them up. Thicker nylon at the top of cast to stop the dropper wrapping around the main leader, then taper, with a smaller fly on the point. For me 8lb maxima would be heavy but I used this as an example because I've fished with others who just use this straight through in the above conditions and been out fished thats why I think colour of leader or glint can have something to do with it. And yes the fish are big, so if your lucky enough to hook the fish of a lifetime its nice to have something in reserve.
In my opinion it is absolutely essential to remove the glint from nylon leaders. Once you have done that it doesn't seem to make a lot difference what diameter you use. I catch just as well on 4 lb Maxima as on 8 lb Maxima for most things, but if I don't deglint I catch a great deal less regardless of diameter.
For dry fly fishing, ( mainly rivers in my case) I usually use 3lb Maxima as tippet, also very carefully deglinted.
TL
MC
I'm being facetious guys :)
It just seems that when these threads come up most of the things that are seen as taboo I do, did I say I also use a braided loop and leader :) I have tried just about everything over the past forty years and dismissed a lot of it as time wasting crap. I just use what I have always used and catch, or not, fish. The main thing is I come back relaxed and in a better frame of mind to tackle the everyday tasks that make up most of my life. Did I also mention we stand on high banks over clear water watching fish chase a nymph on the end of a line hanging straight down from the rod tip out over the water in bright sunshine :)
The pictures to show it :)
He chased it one way.
[attachimg=1]
He followed it another.
[attachimg=2]
He went for the dry fly instead :)
[attachimg=3]
I also fished the Clyde a lot years ago for trout and Grayling with the same gear :)
Fair do's, Sandy, no offence :)
I just don't think it does to be too set in ones ways, and dismissive of others.
Flat calm on a summer evening. A large fish is rising in front of me. Do I want a 7wt and team of three flies on 5lb maxima?
I do not.
Quote from: fishtales on July 10, 2012, 10:45:26 PM
I'm being facetious guys :)
It just seems that when these threads come up most of the things that are seen as taboo I do, did I say I also use a braided loop and leader :)
Although some might,( indeed almost certainly will! :) ), disagree, it's only really the same "magic bullet" type thinking that persuades people to keep buying new rods in the belief,( actually forlorn hope), that they will then cast better. Of course they wont.
When you see the gut casts of yesteryear they look like hawser compared to modern nylon monofilament, and the good anglers caught plenty of fish using them.
Also, as you quite rightly point out, it's not just about catching bagfulls of fish.
TL
MC
Quote from: deergravy on July 10, 2012, 11:19:20 PM
Flat calm on a summer evening. A large fish is rising in front of me. Do I want a 7wt and team of three flies on 5lb maxima?
I do not.
Possibly not, but if that's what you have, you make the best of it, and it will work often enough.
It's not really a case of being "dismissive" of other things. I have no doubt that many here have tried a great number of things over the years. As a result, they know that many such things wont make much difference at all to your catch rates, or your general enjoyment.
TL
MC
Been there, done that. I did change the middle dropper #12 Iron Blue Dun for a #18 Caenis Nymph though and swapped the dry and the nymph around then Mucilined the leader and cast so that it all stayed on the top and the wets fished just sub-surface on three inch droppers :)
Maybe I don't catch as many fish as I should and trying all these methods would improve my catches, but do I really want all that hassle when I know that what I am doing works anyway? :dunno
Did I forget to mention the braided loop, should be called relaxing not fishing, but it doesnt hurt to try to improve things if you want to, gives us something to think about when not fishing and hopefully more fullfillment should it work, if I fish with less hassle, flies tangling up etc, I will be more relaxed and enjoy it better. Anyway 5lb maxima for all round loch fishing is hard to beat !
That may be so Alan. I have caught fish with my setup with the flies static too. Both on the dry fly and the nymph. This was in a flat calm, in bright sun on a gin clear alkaline loch. It works for me and I stick with it because it does. It took fifteen or so years to get to that point and I have been using it for the past twenty five. I don't see me changing soon :) The average fish was half a pound the one on the static nymph was a pound and a half. I wouldn't have got it if I hadn't seen the dry fly twitch from side to side on the surface as the line itself never moved and I never felt a thing :)
This was the place.
[attachimg=1]
I missed this one.
[attachimg=2]
This was the fish before I returned it.
[attachimg=3]
A 3lber from the above loch will be no more clever than this fish.
Will be unlucky to see more than one cast of flies from one year till the next.
Different if the loch in question is fished hard.
Alan
The missed fish I covered for ten minutes and missed it to the wet fly half a dozen times, not once did it come for the dry nor did I put it down, I moved on eventually and left it in peace :) I just go and fish. Different loch or river they are treated the same. The only fish I target are the fish that are there. My heaviest fish on a fly was three pounds, my average is six ounces, they are all still just fish and each is treasured the same. Some are remembered more than others, normally because of the manner of capture, something stands out that makes them memorable. Even just seeing, covering and deceiving the fish to attempt to take my fly is enough to satisfy me that I have succeeded in what I set out to do, actually catching it is the icing of course, but that's just me :)
I do all my loch dry fly fishing with 7lb bs copolymer - that's 2x. Seems to work well for me, I'm happy to use the same nylon on the Clyde but will go down a bit to 5lb bs for smaller flies. I use even heavier standard nylon for sunk line fishing on Loch Leven.
As far as true manufacturers rather than brands are concerned, have a look here ... http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?Country=&IndexArea=product_en&fsb=y&SearchText=tapered+leaders (http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?Country=&IndexArea=product_en&fsb=y&SearchText=tapered+leaders)
Alex
Quoteoh ya beauty..double taper leaders without knots on and i only need to buy 50 or something :D
Buy 200, smuggle them to Iceland and finance your trip. :) Not those ones obviously, something that is actually useful.
Alex
Not ANOTHER fucking chart! :lol:
You know, sometimes I think some anglers would be better served by spending less time concentrating on the minutiae of tackle and more time fishing and leave this stuff to the shed or lawn bound pretend anglers.
Modern rods, fly lines , leaders and all the other pish, hype and bullshit. I am astonished I managed to catch any fish at all 30 years ago. :roll:
So Admin if I follow your logic then we should still be fishing with slit cane rods, cat gut ett and all sharing of knowledge and advances should be burned/banned????
Quote from: Alan on July 12, 2012, 01:58:12 PM
the article has some pretty interesting stuff in, for example roughly what your real breaking strain is with a knot in..
I read some of the responses on fly forums. Apparently the Davy Knot came out badly. This made me wonder about the entire "review".
Scott did tests a few years ago. The Davy Knot was one of the best.
Scott does not spend his time sitting in cold sheds, he fishes, he is skilled, he understands fishing.
I therefore believe Scott's review.
Quote from: Alan on July 12, 2012, 02:18:06 PM
i don't use the davey knot for er..the same reasons in the review, it can fail for no apparent reason even after a good pull to test.
I don't use a 1/2 blood unless I have to because it also fails for no apparent reason - sometimes. But sometimes it doesn't. My guess is sometimes I tie it well and sometimes I don't.
The first fish I hooked in NZ last February on The Mataura broke me. A poor, hurriedly tied and not properly tested water knot parted. No amount of test chart studying would have fixed that. I am very dubious indeed of reviews like those. I think it is far more important to stick with what works for you or recommendations from those you respect and test test test. Only a lot of fishing and sadly a few lost fish will prove what works for you. There are just too many variables to be absolute about these things.
I use 3 knots: 2 turn water knot, 3 turn uni knot and 1/2 blood if using a short dropper and don't have enough materiel to tie a uni-knot. I use these knots because I can tie them blindfold and they don't let me down unless I have been stupidly careless, which, after 40 years of fishing I still am on occasion. I'd bet everyone is on occasion - all it takes is a distraction.
QuoteI use 3 knots: 2 turn water knot, 3 turn uni knot and 1/2 blood if using a short dropper and don't have enough materiel to tie a uni-knot. I use these knots because I can tie them blindfold and they don't let me down unless I have been stupidly careless, which, after 40 years of fishing I still am on occasion.
Same here.
The only other knots I use are a simple overhand loop, a full blood knot for knotting thick butt pieces and a needle knot. Oh and there is the shock leader knot too, for winter beachblanking :)
We have been here before, but I find different lines need different knots and not all of us tie our knots exactly the same when it comes to tensioning and tightening. When I first tried Frog Hair my old tucked half blood proved unreliable and it was Bob Wyatt who suggested I try the Uni Knot. I did and it solved the problem and was easy to tie, so now that's what I use.
Alex
Quote from: Alan on July 12, 2012, 03:17:14 PM
those are pretty lean knots
I firmly believe that the more turns the weaker the knot. You have to use enough turns to prevent it slipping of course. I have never had
properly tied and tested 2 turn water knot fail.
As the son of a Master Mariner of the old school I was taught the difference between a knot, hitch and bend and can get pedantic about it too! Blindfold, behind my back and over my head were all part of the training, at one time I could splice blindfold- useless in fishing. Knots never fail as a result of the material used, you tied it wrong or used the wrong knot for the task in hand (the exception is the failure of the material itself).
Anglers rarely consider the diameter of the tippet in comparison to the diameter of the hook eye to which they tie it. At the conclusion of tying the tippet and shank are aligned, but the action of casting moves the final bight of the knot within the eye in the two available planes resulting in abrasion and/or heat which weakens the tippet. The smaller the diameter of the tippet in relation to the hook eye, the greater this effect.
When examining a "failed" knot, are you certain that you are looking at all the material that comprised the knot? (properly a bend, told you I could get pedantic!) or just some twisted nylon above the break?
Are you tying the knot exactly as you should? Do you turn blood knots clockwise or anti-clockwise?
The Bowline can be tied in a left or right-handed configuration, both are adequate in most situations but the left-handed version is inferior- this is not an attack on the corriefisted, it describes the knot, not you.
Quote from: Inchlaggan on July 12, 2012, 06:39:36 PM
Do you turn blood knots clockwise or anti-clockwise?
That depends on which hemisphere I'm fishing in. :D
Another factor to consider when choosing a leader/tippet/cast is abrasion resistance.
In the first three months of this trout season I lost quite a few big fish to breakages. Most of these were when trying out a new ultra-thin material and most of the fish I broke off on were running under trees, into the roots and branches.
I did lose some in open water too. Paulr might recall one big fish that tore off like a scalded cat. It was running fast and the line was under no great tension when it parted. I don't think that fish broke me because it had drowned the line, I think the leader must have scraped across the teeth.
Back to my Rio stuff after that and no complaints.
Alex
Quote from: haresear on July 12, 2012, 06:45:21 PM
Back to my Rio stuff after that and no complaints.
For river fishing I'm sticking with that. Only one complaint is it can kink very easily if you have to pull it hard off the spool. It is then a total bastard to knot. Other than that it is good stuff for river fishing or dry fly on lochs. Hopeless for pulling wets loch-style though as all these co-polymers seem to be. For that you can't beat bog standard Maxima imo.
Couple of very interesting points here. Never considered the two turn water knot nor the effect of a big heavy fly on light line.
I'm very lucky in that I've only been broken once in the past umpteen years and that was a drowned line job. I did have a sheared line incident this year using Hardy 4lb bs (5x) but that was after the fish was landed. I moved back up to 5lb bs (4x) minimum after that. I suppose as a penalty I may not have hooked as many fish as I otherwise would have done but I do well enough. For salmon fishing I use 8 or 10lb bs standard nylon and again have never once had a break-off except when I've been taken into tree roots - and that almost never happens.
Quote from: Alan on July 12, 2012, 08:18:47 PM
Malcolm how can you distinguish between a break off and a bit off?
I've no idea - neither of them have happened - except the incident of the drowned line (approx 2003?)which I mentioned and the broken line after the fish was landed.
Very fine for salmon Malcolm, I lost my biggest and best salmon hooked using 15lb :(
Since then I always fish as heavy as I can get away with, even 20lb Maxima on a size 7 or 9 salar which may be a bit heavy but doesnt seem to deter them?
Same here, I've never been broken by a fish. Had some bite-offs though, mainly pike. Had a knot fail at the hook eye on a big sea trout once and lost the fish while trying to land it. The end of the nylon had the typical curl of a "pulled" knot.
If you get a bite off then you will see that the line is cut. Sometimes after a big perch for instance, you can see where the nylon has been abraded by passing over sharp gill plates etc. Up to now I have not lost any big perch because of this, but I change the tippet after every large fish.
I generally use a 5 turn tucked half blood knot. I wind the loose end around the standing line, I don't "twirl" the nylon, doing that will make a poor knot. Thoroughly wetted with spit and pulled slowly tight to attach flies, but I also use it for other things.
If you use fine nylon on big flies then it will hinge badly and the nylon will eventually give way at the knot. So if you use it you have to check/change it regularly. Also often ignored, but poor casting puts much more strain on knots.
As already pointed out I think carelessness when tying a knot causes more problems than anything else. If you are careful then your knots will be a lot more reliable.
The wet breaking strain of nylon is different to the dry breaking strain, usually at least 10% less, but often more than 10%.
TL
MC
Quote from: Alan on July 12, 2012, 09:00:56 PM
I'm just confused, i thought your thread on bite offs was because you had bite offs :?
Nope, it was because of that one incident and wondering whether teeth against fine nylon was the reason for so many break offs. I have thought this before when looking at some of the pictures of big fish and wondering what the effect of a slight nick from those teeth would have on 7x nylon.
Colliemore,
I almost always fish small spate rivers for salmon - especially the Endrick which is all of 5 minutes from my home. It has very few bouldery runs and the fish are seldom more than 20 yards from me. If I were fishing a big river like the Alta or one or the rock strewn rivers like some parts of the Kirkaig the nylon would be much much heavier. The problem with heavy leaders for salmon fishing is that they have a lot of resistance against the current and the fly rises up in the water and I like a bit of depth.
Anyway .... back down there again now for the last hour of light.
Quote from: Malcolm on July 12, 2012, 09:25:52 PM
Colliemore,
I almost always fish small spate rivers for salmon - especially the Endrick which is all of 5 minutes from my home. It has very few bouldery runs and the fish are seldom more than 20 yards from me. If I were fishing a big river like the Alta or one or the rock strewn rivers like some parts of the Kirkaig the nylon would be much much heavier. The problem with heavy leaders for salmon fishing is that they have a lot of resistance against the current and the fly rises up in the water and I like a bit of depth.
Anyway .... back down there again now for the last hour of light.
Yes as we mentioned recently good to use something to give the fly some depth.
It was on the Ness, First run must have been 100yds, second run didnt stop, I held, something had to give and it was my line probably on the rocks it came back frayed and rough ! Enough people had seen it when it jumped to tell me it was big, very big for me and among the anglers who had gathered to watch we estimated 25lbs and straight from the sea, it turns out that most of the long serving club members has had a similiar experience and I have also witnessed one. I was given the good advice "Dont worry you'll get over it, in about sixty years time" soo true !
I have only had one instance when I was pretty sure (in retrospect because it baffled me at the time) I had a bite-off. I was wet fly fishing on a hill loch, got a savage take, fish off. Reeled in to find a dropper fly was cut clean off - no kink, no curl. The only explanation I have is a bite-off. I was using 4lb fluorocarbon. Never used it again after that.
Quote from: admin on July 12, 2012, 10:15:24 PM
I have only had one instance when I was pretty sure (in retrospect because it baffled me at the time) I had a bite-off. I was wet fly fishing on a hill loch, got a savage take, fish off. Reeled in to find a dropper fly was cut clean off - no kink, no curl. The only explanation I have is a bite-off. I was using 4lb fluorocarbon. Never used it again after that.
May have been a pike, they often bite nylon clean off on the take. Tried fluorocarbon once, found it awful, quite apart from the fact that it has a half life of hundreds of years. Nylon slowly rots away in a reasonable time frame.
TL
MC
Quote from: Alan on July 12, 2012, 10:22:56 PM
surely it would have bitten through nylon or copoly of the same diameter :?
But it's only ever happened to me with fluorocarbon which I admit I had a bit of a downer on prior to that due to knot failure issues.
Quote from: Mike Connor on July 12, 2012, 10:24:17 PM
May have been a pike, they often bite nylon clean off on the take.
Don't think there are pike in that wee loch Mike, but with these pike egg festooned ducks flying around you never know for sure :lol:
Is some makes of flurocarbon not renowned for breaking especially in small diameter, hence use 6 or 7lb where you would use 4lb maxima ?
Quote from: admin on July 12, 2012, 10:27:31 PM
Don't think there are pike in that wee loch Mike, but with these pike egg festooned ducks flying around you never know for sure :lol:
Pike are really the only fish in the UK that can bite various stuff clean off. There were quite a few people who advocated using "hard" mason monofilament as tippet, but I use Kevlar now. I used to use braided steel wire, but the Kevlar is better. You still have to check after every fish. I have never had it bitten off, but they can fray it badly. It is more or less impossible to cut with scissors etc, but a sharp knife will cut it, just takes a bit longer.
You can occasionally get nylon and other stuff with flaws in it. Years ago I started running tippet material carefully through the thumb and second finger of my left hand ( use your right hand if you are left handed. This is because the fingertips of your least used hand are more sensitive). You will feel even tiny flaws or "flat spots", and if you do feel one, discard the length, it may well break like rotten cotton.It was quite common at one time, but is pretty rare now, long time since I had to discard anything. Also, if you have bent nylon over a spool rim or similar, it is best to discard that piece. Any kink, flaw, or flat spot,weakens monofilament very considerably.
TL
MC
Quote from: Alan on July 12, 2012, 11:00:16 PM
according to that article variation in diameter appears to still be the case.
That can be serious, depends on the reason for the variation. Even relatively slight variations in the same piece can cause serious weak spots. This of course is much worse in fine nylon.
Whatever you use I think the main thing is to take great care when tying knots etc. If you do that you will definitely have fewer problems.
TL
MC
This is it;
http://www.rodgersfishingtackle.co.uk/product_catalogue.php?sec=5&cat=15&product=3968 (http://www.rodgersfishingtackle.co.uk/product_catalogue.php?sec=5&cat=15&product=3968)
I also still have quite a selection of "ready-made" Kevlar and "Kevlar/steel" tippets. I got a big packet of stuff from a Japanese manufacturer for free.
TL
MC
Which leader threads always bring a large grin to my ugly mug and this one is no exception.
I know many many anglers for which this is a complete obsession, spending the price of a new rod and waders each season trying out the latest and greatest and never happy with anything.
When I fished for salmon and sea trout I never felt the need to look beyond maxima, reliable, not prone to abrasion issues. My fishing partner at the time switched to Drennan Subsurface and twenty years later still has nightmares over 4 fine springers that broke it like thread. Tested perfectly from the spool but once it was wet for a while it failed completely.
I have long since come to a conclusion that the cheaper the stuff the more likely it is to be good, not always, but a far better rule of thumb than the dearer it is the better it is.
Since taking up river trouting some ten or so years ago the most reliable I have ever used was good old cheap as chips original Shakepeare Omni, can't seem to get it anymore, tried the omniX but it is a load of xxxx. Many anglers are downright snobbish and the idea of hanging a spool of €3 Omni-X off their waistcoat is simply not a done thing.
For all last season I used Stroft ABR 0.12mm and found it superb, tried same stuff 2 years ago when a friend gave me a spool, tested before using, it was rubbish. If you find a leader material that seems to meet your requirements always test it with your usual knot to a hook before leaving the shop, even manufacturers of generally good reliable stuff produce bad batches and what was good last year may not be the same product this year. Maxima seems one of the exceptions here, proven reliability over a long period of time which is obviously down to excelent quality control, hence its popularity amongst many anglers.
Lastly if like me you catch a lot of trees, you don't want ot buy expensive stuff :)