As some may have noticed I'm trying to reduce weight.
As I eat so many meals out in the middle of nowhere I'm not a big fan of a sandwich or similar as you aren't long until that becomes a bit boring so I almost always have a stove with me when I'm out and about, even if only to make tea. As anglers we are rarely far from a source of water which is handy.
On days out when tea might be the only requirement I generally use a Crusader stove/mug combination. Some people hate these, but I love mine and thing it is just so handy and robust plus everything I need to make tea can go in the mug while it is packed in my bag.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj320/caorach/food/crusader_zpslqifjqcn.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/caorach/media/food/crusader_zpslqifjqcn.jpg.html)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj320/caorach/food/tea-dhiobadail_zps283aded2.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/caorach/media/food/tea-dhiobadail_zps283aded2.jpg.html)
I tend to burn a combination of Hexi and chafing gel in my Crusader. Chafing gel is that stuff they use in hotels to keep the food warm and this is its big advantage - you can buy catering sized tubs of it (4kg) for between £10 and £20. The chafing gel is easier to light than the hexi and doesn't produce any smell or nasty combustion byproducts but I don't think it has quite the energy density as the hexi. For this reason I find that a combination of both works for me.
The next step up for me is the Dragonfly stove - this is a pressurised liquid fuel stove that will burn almost anything you can pour into the fuel bottle. A friend had easy access to large volumes of dry cleaning fluid and this is what he used in his! No, I've no idea why, but it worked. I run mine on the Coleman Fuel (naptha) as it burns clean but I could even take the fuel from my car. The Dragonfly stove is a little more controllable than the Crusader but it is also heavier and rather more bulky:
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj320/caorach/food/chillie2_zpsc17d152c.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/caorach/media/food/chillie2_zpsc17d152c.jpg.html)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj320/caorach/food/stove-steam_zps44lnsxjt.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/caorach/media/food/stove-steam_zps44lnsxjt.jpg.html)
In my quest to reduce weight I decided to take a look at the little burners that fit on top of the gas canisters and so I've recently acquired one of the Alpkit Kraku stoves:
https://www.alpkit.com/products/kraku (https://www.alpkit.com/products/kraku)
These are tiny and very lightweight, fitting with my plan to reduce the weight of what I carry for longer trips, but clearly they depend on you having access to the appropriate gas fuel. Usefully the gas is available in several sizes - 100g, 230g and 450g. I have a 100g and a 230g canister to get me started and for the purposes of experimentation. The 100g canister with stove weighs in at around half a pound while the Dragonfly with fuel is at least 2 pounds heavier than this. The fuel canister and stove easily fit inside my cooking pot for transport.
Here is the stove all folded up and alongside a Blue Elver and a Connemara Black:
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj320/caorach/food/burner_zpsznxizn8z.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/caorach/media/food/burner_zpsznxizn8z.jpg.html)
This is the stove on the larger 230g gas canister, which is what I've been using for testing over the last few days:
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj320/caorach/food/stove-lighter_zpsthrlzjd7.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/caorach/media/food/stove-lighter_zpsthrlzjd7.jpg.html)
For lighting my various stoves I use Torjet lighters as they are cheap and have never let me down so far, though I usually have 2 or 3 of them in various places in my gear. This is the stove with the lighter:
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj320/caorach/food/stove-scale_zpsp0p39rl4.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/caorach/media/food/stove-scale_zpsp0p39rl4.jpg.html)
Over the last few days I've been out and about and although I've been cooking at the back of the car rather than backpacking it seemed like a good time to give the new cooking system a test. Now, for various reasons, I didn't do anything difficult so it was mostly boiling water, but even so it worked well with fast boil times. The only slight problem is that when heating milk for my breakfast (I like to be comfortable when out) the combination of thin pot, breeze and the nature of the stove resulted in some burnt milk stuck to the bottom of the pot. However, being honest, I've never found an outdoor cooking system that didn't do this.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj320/caorach/food/stove1_zpsklvmg4ai.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/caorach/media/food/stove1_zpsklvmg4ai.jpg.html)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj320/caorach/food/stove2_zpsjuxvaksn.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/caorach/media/food/stove2_zpsjuxvaksn.jpg.html)
At the minute I still have no clear idea of how much fuel the stove will use but I've had two breakfasts, maybe 6 cups of tea, and two lunches out of the gas so far though I've no clear sense of how much is left. The lunches were "boil in the bag" type solutions so I was boiling water and then keeping it on the boil for at least 15 minutes so there was at least 30 minutes of this. The 230g canister cost me £5 and the 100g ones are £4, at least those were the ones a local shop had but shopping around might give savings.
All told I've been fairly impressed with the little Alpkit stove and if I can lighten up other elements of my kit then hopefully it will find its way on a few camping trips next season. It offers a significant reduction in weight and volume over my previous solutions and, basically, almost all the weight you carry is in the fuel as the stove weighs next to nothing.
Wind is a big problem in most of the places I go and over the last few days it has been quite breezy so, as you can see, I was using a wind shield. Now it wasn't quite tall enough for the 230g canisters but would be ideal for the 100g ones. I did have some concern about it causing the canister to heat up presenting some risk however this was simply not the case at all and no matter what I was doing from full on attempts to heat water to long duration simmering there was never any heat at the top of the canister. I will be watching this closely, especially with the smaller canister, but I think if you use your brain then it may be possible to make effective use of a wind shield with no risk of heating the gas canister which would, of course, be a very bad thing indeed. Needless to say people without a brain need not apply.
I use a jet boil now and again these days I use to use a pocket rocket (similar to your little gas one) but with the price of gas and the time it takes ive found wood burning stoves to be ideal but this is lowland woods unlike the highland moors some times I prepack mine with prepare kindling and get roughly 30 minutes burn for not very much wood. With the jet boil your looking at about 1 hours burn from the 230g bottle.
if you use this set-up in the winter you will find that it is almost essential to heat/insulate the canister a bit. otherwise you get a very slow cook indeed. this is the problem with lpg stoves. plus they're pretty thirsty by comparison with liquid stoves. very convenient tho'. beware your cooking pots sliding off the supports, too.
you may as well take a larger gas cylinder, as most of the weight is the metal in the canister itself. if you do a quick search through my posts you'll see we came to the conclusion that a liquid stove was more useful & not much heavier than the gas ones, even for mountain marathons. bear in mind that you don't have to fill your fuel bottle..... and you can save both weight and money by using fresh or frozen ingredients if you're clever about it. the pre-frozen food thaws out while you're on the hill so it's all ready to prepare when you camp. freshly cooked steak is far more appetising than chicken powder :8)
Quote from: corsican dave on October 28, 2015, 02:39:04 PM
you may as well take a larger gas cylinder, as most of the weight is the metal in the canister itself. if you do a quick search through my posts you'll see we came to the conclusion that a liquid stove was more useful & not much heavier than the gas ones, even for mountain marathons. bear in mind that you don't have to fill your fuel bottle..... and you can save both weight and money by using fresh or frozen ingredients if you're clever about it. the pre-frozen food thaws out while you're on the hill so it's all ready to prepare when you camp. freshly cooked steak is far more appetising than chicken powder :8)
At the minute I'm trying to save some weight as I simply can't carry the gear I have. My plan is to try and save a little on each thing I carry hence why I'm going down this route and why I'm being quite strict about it, at least where it doesn't cost me much in terms of cash to do so. The gas burner is saving me about 2lb over the Dragonfly plus considerable volume. The 2lb saving is useful to have and maybe if I can keep going with the volume savings then I can go to a smaller and lighter rucksack and that, in turn, saves me more weight. So at the minute it looks like going to the gas canister is going to be helpful in heading me in the right direction. The truth is that the "big" savings to be made in the tent and sleeping bag are beyond me unless I can pick up a second hand lightweight tent for not much cash.
When it comes to food then I like to "mix and match" and sometimes I do take fresh stuff along, one of the Dragonfly stove pictures is me cooking a weird chili thing from fresh for example. However sometimes I will also carry self heating MRE type food or the freeze dried stuff. The freeze dried stuff is expensive and not something I use a lot but in the locations I camp (bearing in mind camping is new for me) there is a supply of water so there is a considerable advantage with the freeze dried food under those circumstances. I would also use "boil in the bag" type food quite often and find the "Look What We've Found" range affordable and tasty. I don't think it was all designed to be boil in the bag but that works well for it and I'd usually buy some microwave rice or lentils or similar and boil them along with the main meal.
However, being new to the overnight camping part of this I'm paying close attention to all suggestions and trying to see if I can make them work for me. For days out I have a system, or several systems, that work for me but for the overnight camp I don't think I am close to having it cracked yet.
you must be using a big fuel bottle and filling it up to weigh that much. 2lb is just over 900g.
a 0.6l bottle weighs 140g and the fuel weighs around 400g (1L petrol weighs 700g). the bare stove weighs 400g = 940g total
your 100g canister (full) weighs 200g, stove 45g = 245g
so you're saving 600g, but you only have 1/6 the fuel......
agreed, that's a useful saving for an overnight (means you can carry more food!) but I can assure you I've done a lot of this and you'd be very surprised how things work out. once you start trimming down the biggies (tent, sleeping bag, pack, shite you don't need) the volume becomes irrelevant. but you're thinking along the right lines!
Quote from: corsican dave on October 28, 2015, 05:29:31 PM
you must be using a big fuel bottle and filling it up to weigh that much. 2lb is just over 900g.
a 0.6l bottle weighs 140g and the fuel weighs around 400g (1L petrol weighs 700g). the bare stove weighs 400g = 940g total
your 100g canister (full) weighs 200g, stove 45g = 245g
so you're saving 600g, but you only have 1/6 the fuel......
agreed, that's a useful saving for an overnight (means you can carry more food!) but I can assure you I've done a lot of this and you'd be very surprised how things work out. once you start trimming down the biggies (tent, sleeping bag, pack, shite you don't need) the volume becomes irrelevant. but you're thinking along the right lines!
Have you ever tried the wood burners Dave? I find them to be even lighter if your heading to wooded areas as the fuel is already waiting for you (I'm going through a phase of making my own out of tins) but there is a endless number avalible online.
The large size canister lasts me six days, and more, using it for breakfast and dinner, lunch is snacks and juice :) That use depends on how cold it is but I have never had to use the spare canister I take unless I am using what is left in the old one. I stopped using the screw on gas stoves a long while ago, the old camping gaz ones, as they were too unstable and liable to fall over. The one I use now sits on the ground with a short hose, it also has a pre-heater which means it will run on the liquid gas if it gets too cold by turning the canister either on its side or upside down. I only take a light aluminium pot and small aluminium kettle. The water is boiled in the kettle, poured over the dry food in the pot and returned to the heat for stirring, then I eat out of the pot. I have a cup of hot juice and leave just enough water in the kettle to pour into the bottom of the pot to keep the remains moist to make cleaning it easier. I also found that taking short boil rice, the 2 minute microwave stuff, better as it cooks quicker. Noodles, cup a soups or dried meals where all I need to do is add boiling water and reheat for a short while are a lot easier than long cooking ones as they take less gas to cook. Only turn the gas up as high as you need it. I turn mine up full to light it and then slowly turn it back until I just hear it begin to quiet, instead of roaring, so I use less gas for the same heat output.
Quote from: corsican dave on October 28, 2015, 05:29:31 PM
you must be using a big fuel bottle and filling it up to weigh that much. 2lb is just over 900g.
agreed, that's a useful saving for an overnight
You are right in that I'm carrying the fuel bottle pretty much full. If I keep things simple and only need to boil water then I think the small gas canister will do my job for an overnight which is all I need at the minute. Even if I halved the fuel in the bottle I'd still be ahead with the gas and would still have a volume saving.
I know what you are saying and that, basically, I'm currently just messing about around the edges while ignoring the big stuff, but I have to start somewhere. Also, for the most part, I simply don't have the cash to do the big stuff when you consider that I will probably camp 3 - 4 nights per year. Over the next while I might keep an eye to see if anything useful comes up second hand in terms of lightweight tents and lightweight rucksacks. I'm going to do some experimenting with what I've got to see how things like the tent might go attached outside the rucksack, and to see if I can get away with the main 55l of the rucksack I have, taking the PLCE pouches off, with everything inside. Hopefully the experiments will let me see just exactly the minimum volume I can get away with and that might open up a range of lightweight rucksacks if I can reduce things a bit.
In terms of what I can leave behind then it isn't a lot. As I'm well used to being out for a day, and have pretty much refined what I need for that, all I'm doing is adding a toothbrush, tent, mat, breakfast and sleeping bag to that gear. The cooking gear is about the only part I can lighten in terms of what I carry on a day trip.
If volume is tight try packing the tent without the poles and pegs and slide them down the inside separately. It is sometimes possible to squash it down quite small by getting the air out of it.
The Vango tents are good value if they are within your price range.
http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/vango/tents (http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/vango/tents)
My mate has the Banshee 300 which he packs as above and it squashes down quite small.
He also has the Vango Ultralite sleeping bag, either 600 or 900, probably the 900.
http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/vango/sleeping-bags (http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/vango/sleeping-bags)
It also squashes down really small for a synthetic bag and he says it is warm and comfortable to sleep in. He can pack both side by side in the middle his rucksack, which I think is 60 Litres, with plenty of space above and below for food for 6 days, his cooking equipment (same as mine) and all the other stuff. He is over six foot and takes more food than I do :)
Quote from: Fishtales on October 28, 2015, 06:55:52 PM
If volume is tight try packing the tent without the poles and pegs
The Vango tents are good value if they are within your price range.
I think you are right that I need to look at my packing and be a bit more inventive to get the volume down as I think there are people packing more than I do in smaller bags so I'm doing something wrong. I have a Dutch Army Sting rucksack which claims a 55l main compartment and after tent and sleeping bag I don't get much more in there. The Sting is a great rucksack but it is very heavy indeed so if I could get a 2nd hand lightweight bag I might save 4 - 6lb there.
My tent is a Banshee 200, the sleeping bag is a Snugpak tactical 3 and my mat is one of the thermarest Neoair. I put the money into the mat and it is a great job, compact and light. The sleeping big is quite large and heavy but unfortunately down makes me unwell due to some sort of reaction to it plus I'm a wimp and like to be warm at night :-)
I'd guess after the rucksack the next place I could make a weight saving would be in the tent, one of those Power Lizard things would reduce my volume and save me another 2 - 3lb. They are big money though but I'd certainly consider one second hand.
My feeling is that a few small weight savings would make the difference for me - I was carrying nearly my complete kit for quite a while on "test" days out, not for big days but maybe 5 miles per day, and that was going just fine. Then I added a few wee bits just to make it usable in the field on a real overnight and it was literally the straw that broke the camels back and getting it a mile was almost beyond me. Also on day trips I don't pay much attention to weight and sometimes end up carrying more than I need and so I was often carrying considerable percentages of my "camping" weight on quite long day hikes so it isn't like I need to reduce the weight to nothing, there just seems to be a weight above which I don't function well.
The Ultralite bag isn't down, it is synthetic.
My pack for 6 days is 18Kg which I got down from 20 by getting a lighter sleeping bag and rucksack.
This is my list with weights.
http://www.ftscotland.co.uk/articles/camping-carry.php (http://www.ftscotland.co.uk/articles/camping-carry.php)
The basic pack for a one night would still be around 12 Kg with the bulk being taken up with tent, sleeping bag, rucksack, fishing gear and camera gear :) I think my minimum basic camping weight, without food, is about 8/9Kg.
Instead of cutting back on small amounts of weight why don't you condition your self and build up a natural resistance? Start off with a 10kg bag and cover 8 miles every other day trying to cover it as quickly as possible when this feels natural add some more weight. I've known people to constantly carry a day sack with added weight every where they went to build up a resistance. After acouple of lazy years i have only started adding weight to my back again I'm no where near as fit as I was but I can carry the essentials and more comforts.
It's nice to be able to carry any extras you want and not to worry about scrimping kit fo weight especially for day trips.
I used to carry 25/28Kg when I was thirty and working in the PO carrying 16Kg bags every day made sure I was able to do it. At 65, retired and spend most days sitting on my a**e means I can't do that anymore. The recommended weight to body weight ratio is only 8/10% of lean body weight to limit fatigue but that is for army special forces. The recommended weight is usually 25/33%. I am 80Kg so my 18Kg means I am on the lower limit but I have carried it for 13 miles which I couldn't do now.
Quote from: Fishtales on October 28, 2015, 08:36:38 PM
I used to carry 25/28Kg when I was thirty and working in the PO carrying 16Kg bags every day made sure I was able to do it. At 65, retired and spend most days sitting on my a**e means I can't do that anymore. The recommended weight to body weight ratio is only 8/10% of lean body weight to limit fatigue but that is for army special forces. The recommended weight is usually 25/33%. I am 80Kg so my 18Kg means I am on the lower limit but I have carried it for 13 miles which I couldn't do now.
It's not so much the weight these days more the distance and incline :lol: in Afghan I weighed my self in full rig before going out and it came to 7st before that I had no idea it was all that heavy. Body armour adds a fair bit of weight and helps to spread it around the body which is another key to carrying weight is to have it spread rather than just your shoulders doing all the work, Comms equipment was also another killer. Like your self anything over 20kg and it's starting to feel uncomfortable (a sign that I need to get my arse back into gear at 27)
When you have to carry something and have trained to do it you can. This isn't a war zone though and we are out to enjoy the experience not turn it into a route march :) At Christmas time I could be going out on delivery with 160Kg spread over six bags every day for ten days walking approx ten miles up and down stairs, hills and bending and straightening to low letter boxes for 4 hours. Fair enough each bag got lighter as I approached the next one but I couldn't do that now :)
The most effective thing many of us (including me) could do to get the weight down would be to lose about 6KG. That would make a hell of a difference. :lol:
Quote from: admin on October 28, 2015, 09:09:13 PM
The most effective thing many of us (including me) could do to get the weight down would be to lose about 6KG. That would make a hell of a difference. :lol:
I've lost 10Kg since Christmas :makefun
Quote from: Fishtales on October 28, 2015, 09:06:39 PM
When you have to carry something and have trained to do it you can. This isn't a war zone though and we are out to enjoy the experience not turn it into a route march :) At Christmas time I could be going out on delivery with 160Kg spread over six bags every day for ten days walking approx ten miles up and down stairs, hills and bending and straightening to low letter boxes for 4 hours. Fair enough each bag got lighter as I approached the next one but I couldn't do that now :)
I know it's abit of fun but getting your body use to carrying weight will help you enjoy your time out rather than suffering I don't mean go out and thrash your self up hills all day but even like you said carrying sacks around conditioned you. Just having a little backpack in work with some added weight will help.
Quote from: Fishtales on October 28, 2015, 09:06:39 PM
When you have to carry something and have trained to do it you can. This isn't a war zone though and we are out to enjoy the experience not turn it into a route march
I think this, certainly in part, sums up my problem in the sense that I'm around 10 stone and although I can when fit walk for ever I'm neither designed nor trained to carry stuff and I'm now nearly 50 so I'm never going to be designed or trained to carry stuff. This year various things also conspired against me, mostly in the shape of a nasty chest infection thing which took the legs out from under me in July and from which I've not completely recovered. It is also the case that in winter when you work long hours in town and it gets dark just after lunchtime there is simply a lot less scope to maintain fitness through the winter months.
As I see it my options are go lighter, or give up, so I'm going lighter.
Quote from: caorach on October 28, 2015, 09:44:41 PM
I think this, certainly in part, sums up my problem in the sense that I'm around 10 stone and although I can when fit walk for ever I'm neither designed nor trained to carry stuff and I'm now nearly 50 so I'm never going to be designed or trained to carry stuff. This year various things also conspired against me, mostly in the shape of a nasty chest infection thing which took the legs out from under me in July and from which I've not completely recovered. It is also the case that in winter when you work long hours in town and it gets dark just after lunchtime there is simply a lot less scope to maintain fitness through the winter months.
As I see it my options are go lighter, or give up, so I'm going lighter.
Your never too old I knew plenty of older gentlemen who could run me into the ground. I'm sure if you keep at it your body will soon adjust.
Quote from: SoldierPmr on October 28, 2015, 09:56:06 PM
Your never too old I knew plenty of older gentlemen who could run me into the ground. I'm sure if you keep at it your body will soon adjust.
I will agree with that. I even, at one stage this year, walked around the house, up and down the stairs, with a 12 Kg rucksack on my back. I took it off when I sat down and lifted and put it on again when I got up. It is surprising how quickly you get used to having the weight on your back. My wife thought I was mad but then she always knew that :)
At the moment I can do a five mile hill walk, on estate roads, in just over an hour and a half with no extra weight. Next step is to see how I go with some weight :)
Quote from: Fishtales on October 28, 2015, 11:43:29 PM
At the moment I can do a five mile hill walk, on estate roads, in just over an hour and a half with no extra weight. Next step is to see how I go with some weight :)
The weight bit is where it all goes wrong for me :-)
My normal day pack load is probably just over 1 stone in the rucksack but not counting all the odds and ends in my pockets (and that can come to quite a lot with fly boxes, maps and so on), now I can do it with less when I pay attention but at around that weight a little extra here and there seems to make no difference. I sometimes use the GPS for my nav and this has the useful side effect that I know I average 2.6mph on the moor and around 4mph on a track. This is, however, a moving average and by nature I stop a lot to watch deer or look at sphagnum or fish a loch or...
Add a bit more weight, however, and it just stops me. So, that's where I'm looking for improvement and as the whole thing seems rather finely balanced any reduction can only help.
When planning a trip I go for 2mph average i.e. a five mile walk would be two and a half hours approx. It might be more or less depending on the climbing and terrain but it usually works out at that. Longer walks will take slightly longer as there will be stops on the way to look at the view or just for a rest and drink or a snack but the average time still seems to be around the 2mph, why I don't know :) That is carrying the 18Kg, carrying less just means I get there less exhausted but it still seems to work out at the 2mph. I use the GPS too and I have seen some bits, on a steep ascent, down to 1mph and other bits at 4mph, on the flat or on a descent. Pace is the only thing I can think is the deciding factor and, because I have walked the streets for so long, I have a set pace that seldom varies over an extended walk. Even training walks without any weight around the park here always seems to be around two and a half to three mph average speed :)
Quote from: Fishtales on October 30, 2015, 12:19:47 AM
I have a set pace that seldom varies over an extended walk. Even training walks without any weight around the park here always seems to be around two and a half to three mph average speed :)
Yes, it is amazing but it seems that lots of people have a "pace" and they tend to keep it no matter the circumstances.
On the Lewis moor I always tell people to expect an average of 1mph and this is actually fairly reasonable by the time you cross burns and find yourself in puddles and have to retrace your steps and so on. My own problem is that I'm always stopping to look at stuff so even when I can make reasonable time in terms of moving average I'm probably not doing any better than 1mph myself.
It is funny how you set your self a pace flat ground and tracks I will plan 8 miles for two hours once I start looking at fells depending on routes I will start making that 8 to 10 mile into 4.30 to 5.30 hours.
Like your self I will get distracted and the 2 hours usually laps into 2.10 to 2.30 hours :lol: