I?m a real fan of Oli Edwards? DVDs ? great to watch on a cold winter evening. I have often wondered about his casting stroke.
Watch this clip.
How would you describe it?
http://www.wild-fishing-scotland.co.uk/movies/oli.swf
Quote from: col on November 06, 2009, 06:15:28 PM
simple and direct and not over powered!
it's his back cast that gets me....................
I often do that on rivers... it's a lazy stroke. His rod looks like it's got a softish action rod and a line that looks a bit on the heavy side for the rod too.
Having spent a morning watching the great man (some years ago), I would suggest that the clip does not show his "natural" action.
The camera does lie, and the requirements of the cameraman (get it all in the frame) and the director (represent what you intend to demonstrate) frequently give a false impression.
For the cameraman-
In the vertical dimension we have, say, a six foot angler, with a 10 foot rod, plus sufficient foreground to establish the scene.
In the horizontal, we want to see at least 60 feet of line cast forward and land. That gives a view of (approx.) 2x9. He will want to change that to the broadcast standard.
The director will have timing issues- how long can each shot last? and continuity problems- there is a "Go Fishing" episode where the fish is hooked and played in one boat but landed in another.
This can change your natural cast.
Quote from: River Chatter on November 06, 2009, 06:37:33 PM
I often do that on rivers... it's a lazy stroke. His rod looks like it's got a softish action rod and a line that looks a bit on the heavy side for the rod too.
Thanks RC, that made me think, further to my post.
The requirements of the director/ cameraman would also include - seeing both the line, and the bend in the rod- heavy line/ soft rod.
Add- depth of field issues, which would restrict where the line could pass.
Always better to watch it live.
Ken,
That intro clip is just one example of many. I think that may be his natural stroke. This is not a criticism, I have spoken with someone who fished with him and he is very successful, the guy put much of that down to him being a very accurate caster with outstanding line control. I cannot imagine a professional would use an incorrect stroke in an instructional movie, that makes no sense to me.
So, if you booked a casting lesson and cast like that would the instructor attempt to cure your "bad tracking"?
I wonder if he's using a heavy fly. The cast looks like a Belgian cast (see Alan I am getting the names now) to open up the loop. The cast moves in two planes - low on the back cast and higher on the forward cast. It's very useful when fishing big heavy flies and gives you a lot of margin for error on the backcast.
He is casting in two planes. Out to the side on the back cast and over the top on the forward cast. Useful for casting heavily weighted flies and I do that often when using heavy nymphs on rivers. It is known as the Belgian cast and lefty Kreh casts pretty much like that too.
Instructors would say there is nothing "wrong" with using any cast as long as you are trying to do it :) If that was Ollie's only casting style, which I doubt, then yes an instructor would consider that to be an undesirable element in the cast and would point out that his tracking was suffering on the back cast.
Just read Malcolm's post. Gold star for you Malcolm :)
Alex
Quote from: Malcolm on November 06, 2009, 07:01:52 PM
I wonder if he's using a heavy fly.
A good question. Alex showed me a cast like that - even more of a sweep - to use when casting heavy flies. In this case I don't believe it is as he is seen to use that same stroke when fishing dry fly.
Here's another clip of Oli, this time fishing a Klink - not exactly heavyweight. As Alex said Lefty Kreh casts in a similar way. Why would they be doing this? If it works for you is there such a thing as a wrong way to cast?
IMO Oli's technique has much grace and beauty.
http://www.wild-fishing-scotland.co.uk/movies/oli2.swf
Remember what Oli says about fly tying ....
"we're not after making models"
Probably has something similar for casting.
Seen from the second angle, it looks less like a Belgian cast, which is a definite swing out and around on the back cast. Now it looks more like a typical river anglers cast, with the rod canted over to the side and the line passing below the rod tip rather than over it. Looks like he circles with his wrist and I think I probably do much the same cast when fishing, as opposed to "casting".
Why does he do it? Because it works and he is comfortable casting like that.
Alex
From Alex's last post, i'm going to take a stab and say he probably does it because it looks so effortless and likely is the laziest cast he can get away with and still get the delivery he's after.
Quotethe laziest cast he can get away with and still get the delivery he's after.
That to me is the whole point of casting. Economy of effort (I'm a lazy bastard :)) and getting the fly to the fish.
Alex
Quote from: haresear on November 07, 2009, 12:40:36 AM
That to me is the whole point of casting. Economy of effort (I'm a lazy bastard :)) and getting the fly to the fish.
Alex
I agree and this reason over any other is why i hate using my 7wt rod. It takes too much effort to cast, you have to weild it not cast it. They take away the casualness, the laziness, that cool laid back cast :D That also probably why i don't like stiff rods, they don't let you relax like that. I also like to be able to cast really sloooooowwwww should i so desire :D
Quote from: Alan on November 07, 2009, 01:13:54 AM
there are principles that make a cast work, with these elements you will get a good cast irrespective of any style, they are..line tension, correct application of power, a straight line path with the rod tip vertically and horizontally(irrespective of the plane) a stop and pause at the end of the stroke and a stroke that varies in length with the length of line cast,
Straight line path? Oli's line path is not straight, the rod tip is not always in the same plane. Might a day with an instructor be beneficial? :D
Quote from: Alan on November 07, 2009, 01:13:54 AM
nah, there are principles that make a cast work, with these elements you will get a good cast irrespective of any style, they are..line tension, correct application of power, a straight line path with the rod tip vertically and horizontally(irrespective of the plane) a stop and pause at the end of the stroke and a stroke that varies in length with the length of line cast,
I'll agree with line tension and correct application of power. With respect to your voodoo cast amongst others may we treat the other elements as interesting hypotheses worthy of further exploration? :)
You see, I've got problems with the emphasis put on this "tracking" thing which is the point of this thread and these clips of Oli..
Fine for not putting kinks in your line, probably more efficient and no doubt makes for better accuracy, or at least makes accuracy easier to attain. But real fishing is never that simple and I wonder if getting hung up on it might actually spoil your fishing or even make you less successful?
Quote from: admin on November 07, 2009, 02:11:35 PM
You see, I've got problems with the emphasis put on this "tracking" thing which is the point of this thread and these clips of Oli..
Fine for not putting kinks in your line, probably more efficient and no doubt makes for better accuracy, or at least makes accuracy easier to attain. But real fishing is never that simple and I wonder if getting hung up on it might actually spoil your fishing or even make you less successful?
Spot on Fred. Tracking is most important in a perfectly straight, tight line cast. But if you have serious tracking problems, it's going to affect all casts, you might have the loop unrolling way off target etc. But what i would say is manipulation of tracking is no problem, uncontrolled bad tracking is where you may have issues.
SLP surely doesn't matter the plane of the cast. Ollie's rod tip could quite likely be following a SLP on the back (a movement from low to high to his side) and subsequently follow a SLP on the forward cast as he comes forward in a vertical plane.
Good and true tracking is essential for good distance casting. It is undoubtedly the most efficient use of energy.
On the other hand, when it comes to actually fishing, rather than entering casting competitions, then few if any anglers adhere strictly to all of the "five principles". It is useful to know about them and how to achieve them, but when you have heavy flies whizzing about your head in a crosswind, then it becomes more important to just get a fly in the water quickly and safely.
I was on the Clyde today fishing a pair of heavy nymphs. My casting was not in the least pretty. The fish agreed :(
Alex
Straight line path assumes you are picking up the line and vasting it in a straight line, then the line will be in the plane of the rod. However in a river fishing situation , as I'm sure you'll agree Fred, this is almost never the case - hence all types of spey/switch casts to reposition the line as we prepare to cast.
In Ollie's video the fly is cast and allowed to drift down till it drags. He then casts to his next fishy looking spot. To do this you would as point the rod at where we want the fly to land. In doing so the line is at a fair angle to the delivery point..........soooooooooo the line is not in the plane of the final delivery so you cannot get SLP in this situation.
Video footage is very deceptive.... the film industry is based onthat.
A great answer Peter thanks! :D
A bit bitchy about the film industry though, you mean Jean Luc Picard never really beamed down anywhere? :lol:
Quote from: col on November 08, 2009, 03:25:58 PM
How many tinmes a day when fishing on a river do you perform the same cast?
Exactly the point of the thread. Don't get too hung up on the 'correct' way of doing things. Your new, unusual or unconventional cast or style might just be tomorrow's hot new cast that everyone want to learn. :D
Quote from: admin on November 08, 2009, 11:43:59 AM
A great answer Peter thanks! :D
A bit bitchy about the film industry though, you mean Jean Luc Picard never really beamed down anywhere? :lol:
Of course he did, he was the enterprise captain.
Quote from: admin on November 08, 2009, 11:43:59 AM
A bit bitchy about the film industry though, you mean Jean Luc Picard never really beamed down anywhere? :lol:
And Scottie didn't beam up Kirk or Spock :shock: (He wisnae a scot either :shock: :shock:)