If you could/would who would you choose to guide you and where for a days Fishing. With maybe a bit of Casting Tuition thrown in,if you needed it.
This isn't a thread about the what and wherefores of a guide it is a hypothetical to get peoples opinions on guides and the places they would like to go.
Brian
We had a long thread about guides and guiding on here a few years ago Brian. I seem to remember it pissed a few folk off and not just on here. :lol:
No harm in revisiting it though.
My own view is while making a few bob now and then is possible trout guiding is never going to be a serious thing in Scotland. When Alex and I go out with our guide mate in New Zealand we expect to catch lots of big fish. This guy and his associates have been doing this for 30 years and know the place like the back of their hands. The scope is vast beyond the imagination of anyone who has only ever fished here or even in wider Europe. Last time we had 14 fish smallest 2lb - up to 6lb. In addition you are always in with the realistic chance of the fish of a lifetime, which, let's be honest, you are not here. :lol: Guides over there are not cheap of course, they will cost you ?300 /day (we get mates discount which halves that) it's a lot of money. Even if you charge half or less, how may anglers want to pay, say ?150 to catch a few average Scottish fish or go stockie bashing? Not many is my guess.
Another thing that screws Scotland up is the fragmented and petty feudal nature of ownership. In New Zealand you buy a state license for 100 bucks / year and go pretty much where you want when want to. No matter what the weather, how high the rivers, which way the wind blows there is always somewhere you can go at the drop of a hat without asking anyone's permission. Here in Scotland it's a bit different.
For ?20 - ?30 quid or so you might get a few hundred yards "beat" of some river like the Don, you have to pre book it and if it's un-fishable tough luck, get a permit for somewhere else or go to the pub.
There may be a minor tourist / visitor market, but I would not expect too many home based anglers to hire a guide and if they do I very much doubt if they will want to spend a lot of money Scotland is a salmon destination, not a trout destination. Salmon is where the money is.
'elf n' sayftee is another minefield here. To guide anyone on mountain terrain for money (that's 300M or above in Scotland) the guide really should have a mountain leadership qualification.
I wasn't thinking as serious as that Fred. Just a fun thing to see where people would go and if they would want /need tuition.
I am a Happy go lucky kind of guy and at times I would more than likely not charge. If it has been covered scrap it,i don't mind.
Brian
It's not answering the question, but it may help to get people thinking about the reasoning behind the question.
In Canada I used guides (2 over two trips) because it was a form of fishing I had never done before (fishing from an inflatable raft on a fast river) and for a species I had never even seen before, cutthroat trout.
I wanted to take advantage of and learn from the guide's knowledge about cutthroats in general, rather than the specifics of the river concerned.
In NZ it was different. My first trip was done on a real shoestring budget and I had more blank days than I had good days. My confidence was well shaken.
Next time around I was put in touch with a guide who is now a good friend and I learned a lot from him about fishing in general, through asking questions of him.
To put it in a nutshell and leaving aside learning about access points, secret spots, I wanted to learn about techniques, flies and get some more experienced guy to tell me whether I was doing it right or doing it wrong.
I needed confidence and wanted advice.
Just read Fred's post. I don't ever expect to catch lots of big fish :). Local knowledge and experience will however put you in a place which makes the best of the conditions, or at least save you visiting the local florist for a quick photo on the way back home :)
Alex
Alex sort of answer i was looking for. When I go to Ireland I fish the moy Estuary for Sea Trout, from the bank. I paid for a guide the first couple of time(thank god) as some of the marks from the bank are treacherous . In fact I once had to help a guy to safety( a Guide) gospel truth. It was worth every penny, the guide that is.
Brian
Quote from: Brian Mcg on April 15, 2011, 11:43:06 PM
I would more than likely not charge.
Sounds good, when are you free? :lol:
OK, to get back to your original question: I think if I was hiring a guide anywhere the first thing I'd want to know is how long he had been fishing the waters he was taking me to, how well he knew them and what the alternatives were. That for me would count for a whole lot more than fishing qualifications.
I was thinking along the lines of Skues,Ritz,Marryat etc.
Brian
There is no doubt that getting someone local who knows the waters well and the tactics to take you out can give you a serious leg up. It's certainly worth a try selling it that way.
Chris Dore around the rivers I have been fishing most often down here.
The guys I am going to Northern Australia with for the tropical species.
My friend Dave for Tarpon when I visit the US.
Whoever would be best to put me onto a sailfish on the fly at some point in my life.
And as Ardbeg says, Alex is hard to beat on rivers he knows :8)
Quote from: Ardbeg on April 16, 2011, 01:11:01 AM
Col and Brian on Dunalastair, Joe on the Ythan and Alex on a couple of his rivers.
Exactly. People who have known the waters very well for very many years and who have a proven record.
I've been out with Brian on Dunalastair - he's not worth the money :lol:
Norm
Quote from: Clan Ford on April 16, 2011, 09:45:40 AM
I've been out with Brian on Dunalastair - he's not worth the money :lol:
Fair's fair Norm, it's Dunalastair that's not worth the money. Brian catches massive trout everywhere else. :lol:
Quote from: guest on April 16, 2011, 10:33:19 AM
I was going to offer you guys free guiding on the Argyllshire hills - but as I suddenly turn into a complete fuckwit as soon as I'm over 1000 ft I'll have withdraw my offer on Health and Safety grounds :lol:
Very wise too if I may say so. 'elf 'n' sayftee iz important guv. :lol:
Actually you would be on less of a sticky wicket as long as you didn't charge for it. Of course you could still take cash in unmarked bills, but don't issue any receipts. Not something I would do myself of course, but I have heard it works. :lol:
I'd bring it back down to the economics. The minimum wage is around ?6 an hour, so you are going to pay about ?50 a day MINIMUM. Add for expertise, equipment, permission to fish, insurance, advertising, and all the rest. Add the facts that the season is limited, not every day will be booked, maximum working week, and all the rest, break-even for a take home minimum wage over the year is in excess of ?200 per day. So a full-time, dedicated, expert guide will cost in excess of ?200 per day. Will he/she be worth it? Number of fish? Total weight? Biggest fish? Are these the measures? (If so, take up stockie bashing) :crap
I put up a section on my site for guiding on some of the the more well known Scottish lochs and it's a difficult one as you know people will expect to catch fish and as they would prefer it, big ones. It's a shocking admission this but I was considering including a visit to a stockie bashery to ensure people got something of note on the end of their line at the end of the day. Even some of the landowners who have once prolific salmon rivers on their estates and charge thousands of pounds for a weeks fishing have stocked waters on their land in order to keep their guests happy. Fishing in Scotland is different to fishing in Canada and New Zealand for example because of the fickle nature of our weather and fishing in general but it's still a great place to fish if you get it.
Quote from: guest on April 16, 2011, 10:33:19 AM
I was going to offer you guys free guiding on the Argyllshire hills - but as I suddenly turn into a complete fuckwit as soon as I'm over 1000 ft I'll have withdraw my offer on Health and Safety grounds :lol:
I don't bother much with H&S issues :).
Quote from: Inchlaggan on April 16, 2011, 04:35:22 PM
So a full-time, dedicated, expert guide will cost in excess of ?200 per day.
Which is why it won't work as a sole or even main income source. Pocket money, supplementary income perhaps, main income no.
Ther money may be crap but there is a huge amount of satisfaction that comes into the equation.
I did two days for a family from the south of England last year; Mum, dad and two teenagers. Dad had booked a fishing holiday as a send off for the twins going to University. I did everything from buying tackle and equipment (a visit to John Norris with the family). How to set it up: backing, leaders, droppers, introduction to trout and salmon flies etc. Then a days casting and fishing instruction with both trout and salmon rods. I thoroughly enjoyed it and at the end of it the family wouldn't disgrace themselves on either river or loch.
About 5 years ago I struck a deal with a pro-photographer - one day's photo instruction for a days fishing instruction - he told me what camera and lens to buy which was absolutely brilliant and great advice then he took me through all the shite I should ignore on photography forums (90% at least) and a load of stuff that could have taken months to work out.
To be honest this thread was to be more along the line of" I would have liked to have been guided by Charles Ritz " Then a load of reasons why.
It doesn't have to be Ritz(he was'nt a Guide) he was just who I would have liked to be Guided by. Know what I mean now? :D
Brian
Daft question Brain.
April Vokey
No contest, ask Alan. :lol:
I found one of the previous "guide" threads and moved it to this board. You can see it her.
http://www.wildfisher.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=10747.0
Quote from: Alan on April 16, 2011, 10:53:07 PM
guidewise, Tony Riley in cumberland, and eastwind and joe on the forum here seem to catch massive fish far too often so that would do me on that one,
guest has a fine selection of lochs to puroooze and inchlaggan knows where to find charr, a different catagory maybe.
Good points Alan but the thing is would guides show you their best spot's ? I don't think so because doing this in Scotland would be suicidal killing the river or loch in little less than a few seasons.
If I could choose a guide I would go with one of the above and would hope they would trust me enough to impart some of their knowledge but I wouldn't think these guys would give up their wisdom to someone they hardly know.
A point that has been raised here is commercial viablilty on a full time basis and when you start to go down that route on freshwater lochs and rivers especially in Scotland I reckon your love for fishing and this country has been lost.
We went out with a guy called grant Tigwell on Loch Tay a few years ago and he charged ?90 for the day for his time and the use of his boat as well as permissions. I reckon this was too cheap and would have thought that around ?90 a day as a starting price for guiding is fair and reasonable with permit and boat prices to be added on top of that. Grant didn't guide as a full time occupation and had a part time job to supplement his income which is why he was able to charge such a low price. In order to come home with a clear conscience I don't think you could rely on guiding fees to give you a comfortable standard of living. Then again, look at the guys who do sea charters in Tenneriffe and the like, they know the fishing grounds are ****** but I'll bet they can still sleep soundly at night, :roll:
As regards someone to go fishing with rather than guide me, April Vokey get's my vote in the attractiveness stakes but Paul Yong, Aya Thorne and dare I say it Robson Green would all come a close second for entirely different reasons :)
My expectations from a guide would depend on the outing, if it was trying something different ,bonefish, say ( I can dream!) I would have, being put close enough to a fish, to have a fighting chance of a hook up , high on the agenda. If I was after familiar quarry in an unfamiliar land, trout in Iceland, for instance ( still dreaming!), I would be more interested in learning something new, about the environment I was in and a technique/ skill learnt from experience , that I could take away, a fish would be a bonus. My Expectations with April Vokey may go in a different direction, if the fish go down , say.. :)
Joe
Quote from: Ardbeg on April 17, 2011, 01:06:14 AM
though I better add the Fachan as his nose seems to be out of joint not getting mentioned :makefun.
Ardbeg
He did too! :makefun
Getting back to Ken?s comment about minimum wage. This only applies when you are an employee. Self employed people are their own masters and will either make a living wage or they won't. There is no legislation to cover this. This to a large extent depends on what they are doing. It most certainly is not the responsibility of your customers to ensure you are earning a living wage.
The ?good life escapism? style business, often much loved by incomers from south of the border it must be said and that are scattered over the rural parts of Scotland ? potteries, picture framing, tea and scones type of thing are unlikely to produce enough income by themselves and may not go near minimum wage levels once you work out the total hours worked. I would include guiding along with this, it?s probably worse as the potential customer base is small and the sums asked are large in comparison to a pot of tea and a butter scone.
To be brutal this is a lifestyle choice. You make the choice to do it or you don?t. When making choices like that in pays to temper your enthusiasm with a bit of realism. If you want the guarantee of a minimum wage, get a part time job stacking shelves in Tesco then go out and enjoy fishing in your increased spare time. You won?t have any numpties to look after either. :D
Quote from: Brian Mcg on April 15, 2011, 11:53:58 PM
Alex sort of answer i was looking for. When I go to Ireland I fish the moy Estuary for Sea Trout, from the bank. I paid for a guide the first couple of time(thank god) as some of the marks from the bank are treacherous . In fact I once had to help a guy to safety( a Guide) gospel truth. It was worth every penny, the guide that is.
One of the few times I hired a guide was there and very good he was to. Would not have known where to start and as you say a risky place to fish. While others fished from the boat the guide dropped me off to fish from an island - you didn't wade out to it did you :shock:
I'd probably only think about hiring a guide if I was going abroad; back home I'd be (have been) happy to be guided by folk on here for the price of a shared piece and a wee dram :D
Not quite the same as guiding but it would have been quite an experience to fish with the famous/infamous fishers - say night fishing with Hugh Falkus and fishing with Inglis-Hall on his highland stream
Quote from: admin on April 17, 2011, 09:56:34 AM
Getting back to Ken?s comment about minimum wage. This only applies when you are an employee. Self employed people are their own masters and will either make a living wage or they won't. There is no legislation to cover this.
Correct of course, but (to split a few hairs) I would be "employing" the guide. Having supported the idea of a minimum wage, how can I (on moral grounds) "employ" a guide for less than this amount?.
If I wish an expert I can expect to pay more, similarly if I wish the guide to provide boat, petrol, gear and so on.
I am only responsible for the day(s) that I employ the guide. I am not responsible for his making the minimum wage over the week, season or year. However, in economic terms, I must expect to contribute to the guide's overheads.
Ghillie, Guide, Stalker, Keeper were respected professions (and not just in Scotland) and I accept that there is much to criticise in the way estates were run, but they are few and far between nowadays.
Incomers (including myself) accepting less than the minimum wage or full economic cost do little to help the local economy (or invest in the environment) simply to garner a little pocket money.
Fair points Ken, but morality carries no legislative force here. When I see a product for sale, be it a fish supper or a superb Wildfisher fly line :lol: I have to decide if I can afford it and make my choice. It's up to the chip shop owner / superb Wildfisher fly line supplier to set the price and for me to choose either to buy it or not. Don't get me wrong, I think guiding might be a way to earn a bit of extra income, I might even give sub-300M guiding a go myself one day (can't be too careful in the mountains) if I can be bothered with the red tape / hassle, but I am realistic. I honestly cannot see it ever being more than that. Even in fish of a lifetime destinations like New Zealand most if not all of the guides only earn part of their living from their guiding activities.
Quite possibly Alan, and I agree with much of what you say. However, the minimum wage was introduced to avoid the control of "market forces" pushing wages down below a living wage- (politics stops here).
Round here you can get boat, petrol and permission to fish for ?75, book and bring your own boat costs ?25, in each case you must launch and retrieve the boat yourself. Yes, there are experts who can read a new water and will get in contact with fish, but sometimes even they blank. Blanking is also true of regular visitors.
For ?175 you get yourself guide,boat, petrol, gear, experience, qualified instructor, local knowledge and contact with fish (but sometimes even we blank!) and you do not have to haul the boat in and out of the water.
In both instances you can have three rods fishing.
Quote from: Alan on April 17, 2011, 10:48:26 PM
did i kill the thread :lol:
No, it's just going round in circles. Obviously we are lost and should have hired a guide. :lol:
Quotethe money is in teaching people how to do things, for example, if i said i know this guy that could teach you how to get a drag free drift every time, wouldnt you want to know who he is, how much, how long it would take you? someone that can do this can charge what he chooses,
i would doubt anyone here would see the logic in this because everyone here can catch fish,
That - the learning experience, is what I would pay for, rather than a quick big fish, which I equate with hiring a prostitute. Maybe fun at the time, but meaningless.
Alex
But home based angers can get that for free. All you do is join a forum like this and get to know people. Scotland not being a trout destination the market is going to be very limited if selling to visitors. Salmon is where the money is in Scotland.
I'm all for people making a few quid for themselves, if someone feels they would benefit from a guide fair play to them. It's their money and good luck. For me this would take a lot of the fun part away from a days fishing. The idea of being told what fly and where the fish are does nothing for me. I would much rather find these things out for myself and learn as I go even if I caught nothing, which has been known more than once. Surely making mistakes and learning from them is part of what makes flyfishing enjoyable?
Quote from: John Snedden on April 18, 2011, 05:10:31 PM
I'm all for people making a few quid for themselves, if someone feels they would benefit from a guide fair play to them. It's their money and good luck. For me this would take a lot of the fun part away from a days fishing. The idea of being told what fly and where the fish are does nothing for me. I would much rather find these things out for myself and learn as I go even if I caught nothing, which has been known more than once. Surely making mistakes and learning from them is part of what makes flyfishing enjoyable?
I agree in part. Especially about getting out and doing it yourself.
But, and there's always one isn't there, there are times I would definitely look to have a guide. A short trip where the learning process may just be too long to allow you to get the enjoyment from the trip you are looking for. From other replies, I too would pay to learn, not necessarily to be stuck on top of a good fish. But arguably if you were put on top of a good fish and were able to catch it - you either already knew what to do or just learned it.