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Spey casting dynamics

Started by Malcolm, August 14, 2012, 02:04:46 PM

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Malcolm

I imagine as a small scale retailer that you are driven very much by demand but I have wondered about WFF specialist tapers..

For small stream salmon and seatrout specialist like myself a specialist Skagit taper would be a godsend (7m head with the full AFTM rating within that 7 metres). Ideal for tossing out very heavy doubles in heavy undergrowth.
Cheap single handed spey lines like the Rio Steelhead or the Rio iLine...

It would probably only be me that bought them though...
There's nocht sae sober as a man blin drunk.
I maun hae goat an unco bellyfu'
To jaw like this

Traditionalist

Quote from: Malcolm on August 14, 2012, 02:04:46 PM
I imagine as a small scale retailer that you are driven very much by demand but I have wondered about WFF specialist tapers..

For small stream salmon and seatrout specialist like myself a specialist Skagit taper would be a godsend (7m head with the full AFTM rating within that 7 metres). Ideal for tossing out very heavy doubles in heavy undergrowth.
Cheap single handed spey lines like the Rio Steelhead or the Rio iLine...

It would probably only be me that bought them though...

Most people who use them  make their own. There is quite a lot of info on the net about it.

Scandi and Skagit Heads

http://forum.skagitmaster.com/index.php?topic=892.0

http://www.flyfishingoutfitters.com/fly_line-spey_flylines-skagit_spey_fly_lines

TL
MC

Traditionalist

#2
Quote from: Alan on August 14, 2012, 05:57:00 PM

Malcolm I'm surprised you mention skagit lines at that point, best spey casting line will always be a DT,


That depends entirely on how you cast and what you are trying to achieve. DT's are no use at all for some purposes.

You can not shoot a DT very well at all. This is one main reason for using Skagit and Scandi heads.

http://www.deneki.com/2010/10/switch-rods-scandi-heads-and-polyleaders/

spey casting with scandi line

Scandi Short VersiTip Film

RIO Scandi Short VersiTip Fly Line on Vimeo

TL
MC

Traditionalist

One thing which is governed by tradition and is completely pointless nowadays is using a 90 foot double taper line on a single handed trout rod.  The ONLY reason for a double taper was so that one could switch the line around after one end got soggy and started to sink, ( and also heavier and harder to cast). This reason no longer obtains.

There is no disadvantage at all in using a half line on a single handed trout rod. Indeed, quite the opposite.

TL
MC

Traditionalist

#4
With further regard to Spey casting and variants thereof:  the only part of the line which allows the cast is the D-loop.  ONLY the line in the D-loop powers the cast.  The shorter the rod the more difficult it becomes to Spey cast a DT any distance.  A short head which is usually about 30 feet,(but could even be twenty or less), can be cast a long way even on a short rod, because the weight of the head loads the rod more efficiently and one can also easily shoot a lot more line.  This is impossible with a DT. It is also impossible to shoot a DT any distance, you have to aerialise  a DT to reach any distance.

You can use short heads on a switch rod ( Known as a "switch" rod because you can "switch" between Spey casting and overhead casting), but you can not use a DT in the same way. It just does not work. Switch rods are also usually shorter anyway.

TL
MC

Malcolm

Quote from: Alan on August 14, 2012, 05:57:00 PM

Malcolm I'm surprised you mention skagit lines at that point, best spey casting line will always be a DT,
having tried a few single handed spey lines I'm not sure they are any better than a home made shooting head, but turn over will always be limited by the lack of a rear taper, your stuck with one length of Dloop.

Alan,

The point of the Skagit - and I have built my own is to lift very heavy flies where there is almost no backcast not even enough for a conventional D-Loop. If you want to learn about their uses can I suggest this excellent article by a guy called Simon Gawesworth. You may have to read it slowly 2 or 3 times as it is quite dense but it is worth it. http://www.rioproducts.com/skin/summit/pdf/Understanding_Spey_Lines_2012.pdf

At he moment I often use a compromise - an 8 or 9 WF line on a 6/7 rated rod.   

However this is quite separate to this thread which is all about what people find popular and why and clearly for normal trout fishing a lot of people like DTs for these purposes. By the way I already own 2 (or is it 3) Wildfisher WF lines and they are as good as I need for ordinary fishing. I'm not a DT fan.
There's nocht sae sober as a man blin drunk.
I maun hae goat an unco bellyfu'
To jaw like this

Traditionalist

#6
Quote from: Buanán on August 14, 2012, 07:17:49 PM
Thanks for that, I may try that with my partially cut DT, cut it down 30' more and try that loop arrangement and see how I get on. Your right of course, I don't use this line in a standard single hander fashion, rather in wild windy weather where the best I can manage is a switch or roll (I don't know which) and that works a treat, especially when a back cast just gets blown forwards or as sometimes happens, blown flat, in a hurricane  :lol:

A switch cast ( also called a "jump-roll"),  is just a variation on a dynamic roll cast;

http://www.letsflyfish.com/rollcastmovie.htm

Fly Casting DVD Video ROLL CAST / Switch Cast Excerpt from 'Casts that Catch Fish'

Switch Cast

Roll Cast vs Switch cast

has nothing to do with a "Switch rod" by the way, which can be used in various ways;

HD - "Switch Rod Casting Techniques"

TL
MC

Traditionalist

Quote from: Alan on August 14, 2012, 11:17:08 PM
i have seen an 84 year old spey cast a 5 weight WF into the backing by shooting line, you have to shoot with a WF because too much line lifted and it collapses, Craig(buster) manages about 80' as would Malcolm, but with a DT you can lift way more line than the head of a WF, and i find a DT shoots not too bad, just a bit less than the average WF.
spey casting a WF needs critical balance, you pick up at exactly the same optimum weight point for the rod, less or more can catch you out, this is not an issue with a DT, you can cast any amount of head as long as you have enough weight to bend the rod, no advantage in distance competitions but when fishing you cast different distances with greater ease.

having said that i mostly use a triangle taper, best of both worlds.

You can only lift way more line if the rod allows it.  If you have a head which is matched to the rod then that will cast optimally.  Both WF lines ( which are simply shooting heads with integrated running line) and  DT's are only roughly matched to rods. Trying to use too much overhang with a WF line or a shooting head will collapse the cast.

The distance you cast with a head is primarily governed by the amount of power you use.  the distance you can cast with a DT is primarily governed by the amount of line you can aerialise.

With a rod which will cast 30 grams, there is a huge difference in a line of ninety feet weighing 30 grams and a head of twenty feet weighing 30 grams.

If all your rod loading is in the D-loop you can lift and cast a lot heavier fly and a lot further using a very small D-loop.

If you are using a DT  then you can not lift or cast such a heavy fly because the line wont carry it, even if you are capable of aerialising the whole line.

You can cast a ten gram weight any distance ( up to the distance you are capable of castimg)on any rod, The distance is due to the power you apply when casting.

You can not normally cast a DT very much further than you can aerialise it.

TL
MC

Traditionalist

#8
Quote from: Alan on August 15, 2012, 12:00:36 AM
couple of things i find a bit strange in there, i can cast a dt further than i can aerialise just shooting it in the normal way so I'm scratching my head on that, and fairly recently a dt won a distance comp, can't imaging he was carrying 120'.

but i need to disagree on the distance cast with a WF being related to power, i personally use the same power to cast 70 as 35' for the simple reason that I'm aerialising the same head of line, its just a longer shoot, more power distorts the rod and makes it harder, more precision perhaps.

Shooting casting line will NEVER go further than shooting backing line or running line. The line you aerialise is what drags the other line behind it. Casting line is a lot heavier than either backing or running line.

The distance a line ( or any other mass) travels is directly related to the force applied to it. It is not possible to cast any given mass 70 feet using the same power which is required to cast 35 feet. That is a physical impossibility;

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/energy/u5l1c.cfm

You are confusing something or other there.........

TL
MC

Traditionalist

#9
QUOTE

mike its not that confusing if i aerialse or just lift 35' of a snowbee xs and let go it shoots to 70' in one cast, no skill involved and little effort going forward.

if i lift 35' and cast 35' its the same cast, i have aerialised the same length of line, same effort, the only thing that changes is trajectory, any more effort would give me a tailing loop cos it doesn't need it.

there is also a very important difference between a shooting head and a wf, the rear taper marks a pretty big difference in use, i.e. carrying more line...not something you can do with a shooting head, they are very different beasts functionally.
UNQUOTE

Lifting or aerialising 35 feet of any line is not at all the same thing as shooting it to seventy feet.

That depends on the shooting head, a few of my heads have a rear taper spliced in in order to improve turnover, prevent hinging and "loop end kick", and improve loop formation among other things.

Makes no difference to carry as such. The reason you can not carry much overhang with either a WF line or a head is that the running/backing line will not transmit the energy required to maintain the loop.

Also, when Spey casting, you have no carry at all. The only thing you have is a D-loop. It is the power applied to the D-loop which propels the line. The more power you can apply the more backing you can shoot or the heavier flies you can lift. This is what Skagit and Scandi heads are used for. If the head is matched well enough to load the rod properly you can lift and cast heavy flies, or cast a lot further with lighter flies.  You can not do either with a DT.

I fear we are at some sort of cross purposes here.

TL
MC

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