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Hook Scales for old flies

Started by Traditionalist, October 29, 2011, 11:15:45 AM

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Traditionalist

For a very long time, it was not possible to obtain hooks smaller than a 17, and the quality was not very good either, so many dressers avoided using very small hooks. Modern hooks in these sizes, and even very much smaller, are now readily available, but it is often a problem obtaining soft hackle feathers small enough to suit such hooks, and of course certain small natural flies.

For quite a while it was possible to buy hooks in all the uneven sizes as well, but very few manufacturers make these nowadays, and only the even sizes are readily available. I use a special hook for my spiders, the straight eyed "Drennan Carbon Specimen" in sizes 12 to 18.



These hooks are also excellent for many dry flies, being of fine wire and excellent quality. I use these mainly because the appearance of the finished flies more closely matches the original designs which were tied directly to gut, which I find aesthetically pleasing, and because I do not like the apparent increased bulk at the head caused by up or down eyed hooks. This is however purely a matter of personal preference. One disadvantage of these Drennan hooks, if you use a lot of them, is that they are only supplied in packets of ten. I bought several thousand of these hooks not too long ago, and I nearly went mad emptying all the small plastic packets into suitable containers.

It has been brought to my attention on several occasions that American hook sizes differ somewhat, sometimes considerably from British or European sizes. An American size 22 or 24 being closer to our size eighteen in practice. In case this should be a problem the hooks used for these flies are shown below with a centimeter rule to allow comparisons. Due to the rather complex and of necessity universal nature of electronic communications it is sometimes quite difficult to discern the actual size of some objects shown on a computer monitor. Hopefully this will help in showing the correct sizes.



It was common practice years ago to dress these flies very short in the body indeed, in fact hook-shanks were often cut down to allow this, before tying them to gut or hair. It is possible to do this with modern hooks as well, but the resulting connection is usually not as good as a decent knot on an eyed hook, and so I do not do this. Also, I think the spiders are a lot more aesthetically pleasing on short shank hooks! The fish seem to think so too!

These Daiichi hooks, No. 1640 are identical to the Drennan hooks, and are made in the same factory, merely re-packaged.A "substitute" is Kamasan B980




The first line is the Redditch or "Old" Scale which is in use today. Second line is the Pennell or "New" Scale used in many older books. Over the years, many different hook scales were used, often from individual makers.

10  11  12  13  14  15  16   17

5     4   3    2    1    0   00  000

here is an image; Sneck Bend Hooks;



The odd numbered sizes are not so easily available nowadays, and not many manufacturers offer them. Just use a size up or down and dress the fly accordingly.

At one time, quite a few hooks were "japanned". JAPAN BLACK - "The following is a good japan black for metal surfaces: Take 12 ounces of amber and 2 ounces of asphaltum. Fuse by heat, and add 1/2 pint boiled oil and 2 ounces of rosin. When cooling add 16 ounces of oil of turpentine. One can test antique hooks to see if they are antique. Just heat them, and the japanning will run, and smell of resin.

Wildfisher

I remember Oli Edwards bemoaning the fact on a DVD  that odd sizes were hard to get hold of but very useful

Traditionalist

Quote from: col on October 29, 2011, 12:15:04 PM
I nototiced Tiemco do odd number sized hooks, dont know if thids is just to stand out from the crowd as a sort of catch your eye marketing type thing or  genuine odd sizes? I would love for Kamasan to do a couple of odd sizes in there range some of the sizes are quite a big jump from one to another. 

It's only really a problem if you use the hook size itself as a guide to fly size.  If you are forced to use a hook a size larger than you actually want, then you need to adjust the dressing to suit.  Very many dressers of former times cut hooks down to suit whatever sizes they wanted, but this of course is not a practical alternative for eyed hooks.  Some firms are supplying odd sizes again.  It is as well to remember that hook sizes are not standardised. One maker's 14 might well equate to another maker's 15 ( If they had one!).

Also, I like very short shanked hooks for spiders. The ones I use are 2 X short. ( The Drennan Carbon Specimen I mentioned). This also basically means they have the same gape as hooks two sizes larger. I just recently had a very long discussion and some talks with a manufacturer on this subject.  As most hooks nowadays are produced in Japan and many are simply re-packaged under various labels, it can be a trial finding exactly what you want.  There is also a very great deal of hype about hooks nowadays, with all sorts of types and patterns being offered. I don't bother with the vast majority of them. although I do still buy a few now and again just to check them out.

The major cost of a packet of hooks now is the packet and packaging itself. Always best to buy boxes of 100 or similar if you can get them.  Years ago it was easy to buy 1000 boxes of various Mustad hooks, but I have not seen any for a log time now.  Advertising, packaging, and marketing have taken over the angling market, and this has continued to push prices for items like hooks ever higher.

TL
MC


Traditionalist

#3
Quote from: col on October 29, 2011, 07:20:52 PM
I tend to do exactly that Mike, with the B100 for instance a pattern tied short or long to me is the same size, the distance where the hook starts and finishes doesnt change. So to me a fly dressed anorexic or short is no smaller , yes the dressings shorter , but it just leaves more metal.

Well, I see what you mean, and I appreciate the problem, which in fact very many people apparently have, but it is mainly due to equating hook size to fly size, and in my ( not at all humble! :)  ) opinion, this is really the wrong way to go about it. If you want to imitate a specific insect, then the size of the insect should determine the size of the dressing, and the size of the hook is basically irrelevant, up to a point of course! :)

Also, many people simply assume that trout ignore hooks, ( some even seem to imagine that trout prefer especially "aesthetically pleasing" hooks! :)  ), but I do not share this opinion. The more metal you can hide, and the more "natural looking" you can make your flies, then the better your chances.  Also, my main criteria in hooks are : in order of preference;  Hooking capability, holding capability, and other properties commensurate with whatever I wish to achieve with that hook, light wire for dry flies for instance. It is my job to suit a dressing to the appropriate hook.

One of my basic precepts, ( and there have been a couple of references to this in various literature although admittedly not many), is that the main reason fly fishing succeeds at all is because trout only see things in a blurred fashion, this is also why "impressionistic" flies that behave correctly succeed so well, but that does not equate to being stone blind!  I have seen far too many instances of trout, ( and other fish), refusing flies where the hook was too prominent for various reasons,  to conclude anything else. The present trend for using "aesthetically pleasing" black and other hooks is completely contra-productive in my opinion. If I could I would use silvered hooks, as various experiments have proven that trout see silvery things less well than anything else, but I am obliged to make do with bright bronzed hooks.  It is not a coincidence that the main "camouflage" of various bait fish is a silvery appearance.  Even some of their defence mechanisms, such as shedding silvery scales to confuse a predator, reinforce this view.

I am well aware that a lot of people think me pedantic or "too fussy" in regard to various things, but I don't actually much care what various people think as long as I catch plenty of fish! :)

What mostly happens nowadays, and has been happening for a very long time,  is that various tackle is "Marketed" or "Designed" with the angler as the target, not the fish.  I am not bound by any such constraints, as I don't sell anything and never have! :)

There are also some "hidden" advantages to being an engineer.  You are less likely to indulge in completely groundless "flights of fantasy", It's not as "glamorous" and often less well paid as selling or marketing stuff, but you can sleep well at night knowing that you didn't have to screw somebody to earn your daily bread, and best of all you get to piss off the marketing department all the time, especially when they have once again sold something that doesn't exist and can't work using extant technology.  This only works really well if you are so good at your job that they can't use bullshit to fudge the issue, and the "ultimate boss" has to be aware of this! :)

I treat trout just as I used to treat my "ultimate boss"  ( Don't try bullshit, it wont work! And present what you have as well as you can), ,and I treat "marketing" more or less as I always did, basically an occupation for those unfortunates who either did not have sense enough to become engineers,  or don't much care how they make their money :)

TL
MC

PS.  Six "smileys", must be a personal record!  OK, time for another scotch, think I'll go with the Glendronach, haven't had that for a while.

Traditionalist

Quote from: col on October 30, 2011, 09:32:35 AM
i agree and that was my point the less metal the better, perhaps tummel , anorexic etc style flies tied short are tied in such a way to give the fly  a ballast, to ride properly? ie a less dressed hook may dig in a bit more with less fluff  ? personally i like my patterns to mask the hook appropriately but thats perhaps habit.

You can get away with a lot more in faster water, or in coloured water.  In low clear water, and most especially low clear slow water you need every bit of camouflage or other advantage you can get although this of course also depends on what you are fishing and how you are fishing it. I am pretty sure that the regional "styles" actually reflect the water type more than anything else, although there may well be other reasons as well for some of the more extreme styles. Some styles or fly types disguise the hook a lot better than others, and in quite a few cases this also then depends on the hook pattern.

Whatever  pattern you use in whatever water, I can't see any good reason for not disguising or hiding the hook as well as possible. It certainly can't hurt. Just assuming that the trout ignore it is not a viable alternative in my opinion.

TL
MC

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