The aim till the next season is getting my casting sorted out a bit, so I've been off to the park to practise. I've been using a 5wt Loop AEG for most of last season, with a few outings of a 4wt I treated myself to. Off I went to the park with the plan to start off with a 7wt for more feel (and more weight :() for working on stops with the pick up and lay down. It helped to feel more of whats going on and I was doing really well, not mega distance but decent loops and presentation. I then switched to the Loop with a Snowbee XS and encountered a problem. Right at the end of the cast the leader wouldn't turn over but the speed of the line looked fine. The leader would travel above the main line then right at the end the fly drops down below the main line and doesn't turn over properly. I tried less forearm and more shoulder, higher and lower backcasts, concentrating on stops but it was the same every time. The only thing I can think is forward acceleration, but it was working fine on the 7wt.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Dave.
This is very difficult to diagnose without seeing, Daz but here is something to think about.
A far better caster and instructor than I will ever be told me that the later the tailing loop manifests itself, the later the fault has occurred. In other words an early tailing loop is a result of a fault early in the cast. Going by that yardstick, it sounds like your problem happens just before the stop.
It strikes me that if you can cast one outfit OK and have problems with the other, then maybe you
need to adjust your casting stroke to the bend in the less powerful rod. Could be you are stopping the rod too early on the forward cast? You might try extending the forward stroke a tad and see if that sorts things out.
If you post a video with a side view, it could be really useful to see what is going wrong. As I said earlier, a (moving) picture paints a thousand words.
Alex
Thanks Alex, I'll give that a try. I'm finding it hard to get out in the daylight just now, the bit I go to is lit by streetlights. I'll get a vid sorted out soon.
Dave
Are you shooting line when you cast?? May be as simple as feathering the line at the end with this outfit to make the final bit of the leader turn over
Quote from: rabbitangler on November 17, 2010, 08:53:17 AM
feathering the line
The meaning of that term might not be obvious to those 'not in the know' Peter. But I won't get involved! :lol:
No, not shooting line or putting the brakes on the line, just pick up and lay down. I'll get the 4wt out later and see how that behaves.
Dave
As Alex says a video will help. It could be that you are just at the limit of what that rod is doing for your casting style and the fly runs out of steam at the end of the cast. The Loop AEG as I remember it is a very soft rod by modern standards and none the worse for that. It is a genuine 5 weight and great for easy casting distances up to about 50 feet. Beyond that you may find you need a noticeably longer and more powerful stroke than you would with a faster action rod. Otherwise there is not enough impetus to your fly.
I watched a very fine caster recently and at the limit of his very longest casts a similar thing was happening, His cast had simply run out of forward momentum.
Thanks for the advice Malcolm. The Loop does feels very vague and spongy in my hand, it is very light though, as if there is no backbone about it. I'll try the Angel 2 tonight for contrast.
Dave
You say changed lines to a Snowbee XS might it be the coating on the Snowbee offers less resistance through the rings, or to put it another way is the coating of the first line you used rougher and doing the "feathering" :? for you and masking a problem that is there in both instances?
Ah, that sounds like an interesting idea, The line for the 7wt is quite old. I'll try the 4wt later with the supreme quality Wildfisher line and see how that fares.
QuoteThe Loop does feels very vague and spongy in my hand, it is very light though, as if there is no backbone about it. I'll try the Angel 2 tonight for contrast.
If your Loop is pretty through-actioned, meaning it bends readily down the extent of the blank, it will need a longer casting stroke to get the tip to travel in a straight horizontal line than would a very tip actioned rod with a stiff mid section and butt. That's what I was getting at in my first post, (in which I called you Daz :oops:).
Does that make sense Dave?
Alex
Dave and I swapped rods for a few minutes the last time we were both out- I could hardly get used to it at all. I'm not convinced the line is right for that rod- it feels far to light to me.
It is an absolute pleasure to cast when you already have a long line out however, when you lift to cast with anything short of 30foot still in the water, there's no feel at all.
IMO the line simply runs out of puff :)
No worries Alex, aye makes sense. I was trying to stay away from hauling till I get the basic cast sorted but do you think a small haul would work maintaining the same arc? I'm starting to think that I should just use the Hardy to practise and forget about the Loop for the time being.
Brian, that was the Loop Opti Stillwater line you were using that day, the Snowbee is much more delicate and twitchy IMO.
I still reckon you're needing to step the line weight up a bit.
If you recall, I was experiencing a similar problem this year when I was casting the line further than the flies when I changed to that stupid neutral density 5wt piece of crap snowbee thing!!
Changed to a 6wt and it's back to being straight as a needle. :)
That's probably a good shout.
QuoteNo worries Alex, aye makes sense. I was trying to stay away from hauling till I get the basic cast sorted but do you think a small haul would work maintaining the same arc?
I think you are right to get the basic cast sorted first Dave.
Having said that, for my money hauling does introduce a greater degree of control and done correctly it can smooth out the rough spots.
Putting a haul in late in the cast at the point of the power snap to use a Joan Wulffism, should ensure that maximum acceleration happens when it should happen - immediately before you stop the rod.
This could well solve your problem (with the caveat that we are talking theoretically here and without the benefit of actually seeing you cast).
To illustrate how hauling can iron out the creases:
I was tying to help a guy a few weeks ago. His basic pick up and lay down cast wasn't great at all. The funny thing is, his double hauling was actually pretty good and when he was hauling his overhead casts worked fine.
Dave, it might be worth your while getting in touch with Brian McGlashan. I think he is still running the Fife casting club.
Alex
I wasn't aware there was a Fife casting club Alex, is he on the forum?
There are 3 worthwhile casting clubs in Scotland that I know of. The Weegies, The Fifers and the Turra lot.
They fulfil the essential definition of "club" in that they meet regularly. There may be others but I have not heard of them.
Quote from: davefromtheattic on November 17, 2010, 07:06:54 PM
I wasn't aware there was a Fife casting club Alex, is he on the forum?
Brian McGlashan is listed as a member of the forum Dave, but has not been active lately. He is Brian Mcg on here.
You could give him a call if a PM doesn't work. His phone number is listed at the bottom of this page...
http://www.fishleven.co.uk/front/contact
Alex
Brilliant Alex, thanks.
Thanks for that Bri, I'm going to give him a bell tomorrow, maybe book a lesson.
I expected you to be the first to reply to this one Alan!
Started practising with a 7wt Shakey Xcede for more feel, then moved to the AEG with 5wt XS on it.
Aye you did hear Angel 2, I invested in it for my 30th. Don't worry, I didn't pay full price.
I had a feeling you'd say that. It's not the TE though ;-), but fair point. It's what I was thinking in the back of my mind anyway. You still using the max line speed, or is that the "casting" rod, the Helios being the "fishing" rod?
I'll let you know how I get on with the Hardy when I get a chance to get out.
Quote from: Alan on November 19, 2010, 04:11:58 PM
i already know :lol: the stratocaster of the rod world.
You mean temperamental as hell and only works for left handed geniuses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_V599VuPgc
Quote from: Malcolm on November 19, 2010, 06:28:31 PM
You mean temperamental as hell and only works for left handed geniuses.
The early ones were great- see Hank Marvin.
Jimi's goes so far out of tune during "Star Spangled Banner" at Woodstock that it is impossible to tab the solo.
Telecasters were a solid workhorse- see Roy Buchanan.
Knopffler's red Strat is customised beyond recognition.
My pride and joy was a Gibson Flying V, until an eejit dropped it down the fire escape at Nicky Tam's. :(
Quote from: Alan on November 19, 2010, 08:42:09 PM
it was davefromtheattic speak, he plays guitar, we had a discussion once about using guitars as an analogy to rods, i never seen a stratocaster in my life :lol: but i assume its a good allround classic that would outdo a few modern guitars,
i could be very wrong there though :lol:
You shouldn't have made the comparison - I've seen what Dave does to guitars!!!
Right now he'll have that Hardy stripped back to the blank while he wires up some humbucker pick ups to it!! :lol:
Quote from: Alan on November 19, 2010, 08:42:09 PM
i never seen a stratocaster in my life :lol: but i assume its a good allround classic that would outdo a few modern guitars,
As an educational resource this forum is without limits
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Now if fishermen were analogous to guitars I can certainly see that Alan would be a strat man. Extreme use of the whammy bar and pedal being mandatory.
Quote from: guest on November 21, 2010, 08:24:03 PM
Gibsons - now there's a good solid workhorse with classic tone.
Like these?
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
'71 Les Paul Deluxe
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
'72 J40 Jumbo Acoustic
As you can see my guitar collection is worth more than my house. :lol:
Wow, some nice pieces there Fred. I've never been a Fender guy myself, only because when I think Fender I think single coil. Les Paul's are more my weapon of choice :D
I think I need an SG to complete my collection :lol:
Dave, I love the tiger maple on that Les Paul. :8)
The perfect marriage!!!
Aye Fred, it's lovely. I HAD to have it. The finish is "iced tea" sunburst :8)
Funny, but the Strat is still my guitar of choice even although it's not as well made as the Gibsons. The scale length just seems right in my hands and I find it easier to play even although the action is much higher than the Les Paul. My Strat is an early 80s model, not one of these shit 70s things with 3 screws holding the neck on. That said I can't say I noticed Richy Blackmore having too many problems with the 70s models. :lol:
Maybe he spent so many years overcoming these problems that one day he just thought "f*** it, I'm taking up the lute"
Quote from: admin on November 21, 2010, 09:04:46 PM
I think I need an SG to complete my collection :lol:
Dave, I love the tiger maple on that Les Paul. :8)
I have an 1960s/ early 70s SG up in my loft somewhere. I bought it in 1977 I think. It hasn't been played for about 20 years, I gave up playing guitar about then as I have no talent. I sold my amp and speakers but couldn't bear to get rid of the guitar. As a big fan of blues and fingerstyle guitar I couldn't bear the noise I was making. Now I just go to see Albert Lee, Tommy Emmanuel, Martin Simpson and other greats whenever I can. I'm happier that way.
I never let that worry me Malcolm. Guitar playing is like anything else, you don't get good at it by accident. You have to play and play and play just to stand still......... I hardly ever do now and struggle to put a whole song together. My guitars are now just something I'll pass onto my sons, Martin especially is a far better player than I am or ever was.
Look at it this way, a lot of guys you see with ?1000's of fishing gear can't fish to save themselves either. :lol:
I bought that acoustic when I was 18 or 19 years old. It cost 200 quid. A small bloody fortune back then. The tone just gets better as the years go by. It could do with re-fretting for a few postions up from the nut. It's seen a lot of use in 40 years.
QuoteYou have to play and play and play just to stand still.........
I'll second that, I can't really be bothered playing catch up anymore. I'll never be as good as I used to be, probably because I can't spend 6 hours a day posing in front of my mirrored wardrobes anymore!
There is a 40 year old blonde Tele in the shed, in need of a scratchplate and tremolo arm.
And a cherry SG under the couch.
The Marshall amp and cabinet have long gone.
And, erm, a banjo in the corner of the lounge.
There seems to be a lot of evidence of guitarists turning to fishing. Everyone should bring one to a forum outing next season and we'll see how many half songs we can belt out :lol:
Argh someone needs to teach me guitar!
There's no comparing the angel to the AEG. Suffice to say you cast an angel and get the "holy f*ck" feeling :lol:
Dave, if you truly want to better your casting as a whole, learn how to get the most out of both the softer rod and the stiffer one. It may take a bit longer than sticking to one but you'll likely develop the ability to change between different rods better - it's not difficult, it's just a matter of learning the changes, a casting club would make it pretty darn easy!
Re your tailing loop - it's not the rod and it's not the line. That combo works perfectly well at short, medium and longish range (it dies at silly distance).
How do you stop the rod? Do you try to just stop your hand? If you do, try rotating the rod a wee bit in the stop, so when you come to stop your hand rotate your wrist forward slightly. I'm just chucking ideas of what i think might be the issue, it's near impossible without seeing for definite. Also try this: when you start the forward movement, drag the rod through space (forward) for as long as possible without changing its angle before you want to stop it. Ie. rod goes like this \\\\\\\\|/ instead of \\\|/. And don't power it, be gentle and hopefully this will lead to getting the issue away.
And put a video up! :lol:
Quote from: scotty9 on November 25, 2010, 06:59:08 AM
Argh someone needs to teach me guitar!
Bugger off. Knowing you you'd be better at it than Hendrix after about 2 weeks. :lol:
Ha ha, thanks for the advice Scott, I'll give it a try. That is, of course, if I manage to ever get out!
Scott, I forgot about your suggestion, I've sorted the problem though. I'm a ''puller'' now :D
Strat, Les Paul and Marshall.
Davy, you are a true British rocker if ever there was one. :lol:
The trouble with the WFF House Band is that we have plenty of lead and rhythm, no bass and no beat.
Much like our casting I guess......
A Noel Gallagher once said "I'll play the f*****g bass" :lol: