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Now this is a stiff test!

Started by Malcolm, November 02, 2010, 11:36:20 AM

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Malcolm

I like the idea of a master instructor. Obviously I don't know about the attitudes of examiners of the European FFF so I won't comment. 

Here's my take on it. There's a lot of very experienced fishermen on this forum and one way or another they usually get the fly where they want it. So if we were to hire an instructor it's likely to be for quite a challenging task. So for example if I were fishing a big beat of the Tay in spring I may want to cast 120ft of sunk line to get over a particular lie. So what would be the point of hiring someone who can't show me how?

Or if I have taken up pike fishing and struggling to put a 9 inch bunny on a size 12 line 85ft why would I hire someone who couldn't do that?

Please understand I am not in any way denigrating instruction.

What I am saying is that there is a need for the top grades of instructor who are more than capable of doing casts like that.
There's nocht sae sober as a man blin drunk.
I maun hae goat an unco bellyfu'
To jaw like this

Inchlaggan

I'm with Malcolm on this one.
If I need to learn how to do it, I need to be taught by someone who can do it.
So how do I know who can teach me? - Check their qualifications and professional body to inform my choice.

As for the "qualified to fish" in the example of Germany quoted above, I am with Admin- dead against.
BUT, Soapy et al lived in a different time when PC Murdoch patrolled his beat and footed the arse or clipped the ear of miscreants.
As I watch a depressingly increasing minority of those who wish the "outdoor experience" (walking, camping, birding, climbing, cycling, canoeing, photography, and, yes fishing) despoil the very basis of the experience they seek, I move closer to agreeing with legislation.
The first steps have already been taken here- you will not get to hire a boat until you convince the hotel that you are capable of handling it. A shortcut would (of course) be that the potential hirer produced his certificate of competence.
'til a voice as bad as conscience,
rang interminable changes,
on an everlasting whisper,
day and night repeated so-
"Something hidden, go and find it,
Go and look beyond the ranges,
Something lost beyond the ranges,
Lost and waiting for you,
Go."

rabbitangler

Quote from: Malcolm on November 02, 2010, 05:17:31 PM
So for example if I were fishing a big beat of the Tay in spring I may want to cast 120ft of sunk line to get over a particular lie. So what would be the point of hiring someone who can't show me how?

Or if I have taken up pike fishing and struggling to put a 9 inch bunny on a size 12 line 85ft why would I hire someone who couldn't do that?


Hmmmmm Tiger woods will go to a professional to help him iron out problems with his swing or putting. Could you honestly say the instructor is better than the tiger?

Being able to cast a helluva long way does not mean you can teach someone else to do it. An instructor must be able to pass on his/her knowledge, analyse and advise on a casters faults. If they can't cast 120' lying on their belly between two bushes with an upstream reach mend around a twig half way to the target, but can instruct someone else to do it would that not mean they were an instructor worth visiting?

Ramble over

Peter

Wildfisher

Mind you Peter, as you have pointed out yourself, vigorously and forthrightly,  :lol:,   a few times in the past at least the qualification provides some indication of a standard. I agree though it is absolutely  no guarantee the holder can teach any more than it is for mathematics or woodwork.   Some, like Malcolm, with no paper casting qualification  but who can in fact cast well do have the skill to explain what is required and have in fact taught casting in an amateur capacity.  I gained from just watching for 15 minutes on the grass outsiude The Crask a few weeks back. Sometimes an informal and  relaxed approach works well.

It's a  can of worms.   :worms

Malcolm

I know what you are saying Peter and indeed if there was a persistent problem with a leaded fly smacking the rod tip or a prevalence of wind knots then fine - go to a guy who can help!

However, take the 120ft salmon cast - all the instructors at Glasgow casting club can do that with ease. None are massively powerful they cast using technique. I watched Andrew cast 180ft or so a couple of Sundays ago with a rod he was using for the first time.

They've walked the walk. What I am asking of them is easily within their comfort zone. They can advise on tackle set up as well as cast set up. We all learn differently - I learn from watching then doing so I can watch what they do then try to copy.

Without naming names I know a qualified salmon instructor who cannot even cast 110 feet. Fine instructor as he may be for short, effective and technically excellent casts I would not go to him and ask him to teach me to cast 120 feet.     
There's nocht sae sober as a man blin drunk.
I maun hae goat an unco bellyfu'
To jaw like this

whinging pom

#15
Quote from: rabbitangler on November 02, 2010, 06:39:08 PM
Hmmmmm Tiger woods will go to a professional to help him iron out problems with his swing or putting. Could you honestly say the instructor is better than the tiger?

Being able to cast a helluva long way does not mean you can teach someone else to do it. An instructor must be able to pass on his/her knowledge, analyse and advise on a casters faults. If they can't cast 120' lying on their belly between two bushes with an upstream reach mend around a twig half way to the target, but can instruct someone else to do it would that not mean they were an instructor worth visiting?

Ramble over

Peter

The thing with PGA teaching is that it is based on a rudementry ability to perform the various types of shots to a reasonable standard and ( I love this inclusion) 'confidence', but then learn a huge background of problem analysis, sports phsycology, and even club repairs and adjustments. Its a heck of a long and vigorous procedure.
So you can be sure the guy watching you... even the assistant pro, may not be the greatest hitter of the ball, but he has a damn good idea about the mechanics of the golf swing in its various areas of the course, can recognise problems and knows the best exercises and mind games to put you through to rectify them.
Which seems to me the sensible way to do this. Take a leaf out of the PGA's book and qualify the teachers on they're ablities to analise and teach. Not to perfectly present a 30m cast ( when is that ever going to be usefull as a casting teacher... unless its to belittle a pupils ability) That just puts you into an elite set, it's meaningless.

scotty9

Yeah Paul Arden failed it first time around. As far as I have read, emphasis on that as I have no direct experience obviously, is that it is definitely a "one up" approach with the effa, they just want to be the top etc.

If you want to learn certain specialised aspects I think it goes beyond casting qualifications, you have to pick the guy with fishing excellence too. The salmon cast and the pike bunny cast are totally different, your 120' cast may be in the realms to standard double hand fishing for a double handed instructor. However a single handed instructor who never pike fishes.... I mean i'm not going to show you how to setup a pike outfit, I could probably get to grips with casting it but it would be far easier for me to say, go and speak to X, he's a massively experienced pike dude who'll see you right.

Just like if I want to learn how to present a dry at 100' (for example only!), I could go to an instructor who specialises in fishing burns for small trout. It's not all about the qualification and whilst it does serve to have people with a decent set of all round skills, you still need to do a bit of digging if you are looking for a specialised piece of knowledge!

Pom - i agree an awful lot. You need an all-round skill set at an appropriate level (whatever that may be). And that links well with the rest of my post.

Malcolm

Quote from: Alan on November 02, 2010, 09:30:57 PM

i admire Malcolms openness for these things, they are personal goals where you learn more in doing it than you ever get of it, and qualifications are more valuable for the stuff you learn than the badge,


Alan,

Thankfully I'm not interested in that qualification. I just posted the the link as it's eye-wateringly tough and thought it may be of interest in a jaw dropping sort of way! 

Similarly the casts were just dragged up as an example to justify my belief that a higher level of expertise may be helpful where an instructor is helping an already experienced fisherman. As an aside as I now do my pike fishing with a double hander 85 ft casts with a big fly are the equivalent of dropping a wet fly 12 yards away!

There's nocht sae sober as a man blin drunk.
I maun hae goat an unco bellyfu'
To jaw like this

Wildfisher

If a casting instructor fails the stiff test does that make him droopy?




scotty9

Quote from: admin on November 03, 2010, 10:33:29 AM
If a casting instructor fails the stiff test does that make him droopy?

Probably, if the instructor fails the stiff test he likely didn't quite make it up to the appropriate level.

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