For sinking or intermediate lines I just use a braided loop. However, with floating lines and long leaders I have never been happy with loop connectors for dry fly work; they produce a node of considerable mass and that must affect the continuous taper, roll-out of the cast. Any advantage you get from it has to be reduced. Think of a knot in a piece of wood or bamboo………….try bending it and observe how it affects the curve.
I have faffed around with quite a few methods including using a small piece of braid, super glue and a silicon rubber sleeve. Really too much work and replacing a mangled or kinked tapered leader that way when fishing it not on.
I have always avoided nail knots because they are a pain to tie – or at least I have found them to be so. They do however produce a tiny, low mass node and many experienced anglers, swear by them. I came across this link that uses a small tube and believe me it makes tying nail knots a snip.
http://www.killroys.com/knots/nail.htm
The tube is THE answer. I just use a cotton bud with the ends cut off then cut it in two. Two perfect, simple nail knotting tools. I'll keep one or two in my fly box for waterside repairs this season. With a thick butt tapered leader 4 turns makes a rock solid and neat joint. Drop on a bit of super glue if you need extra security.
Fred I have removed all loops from my lines for next season and used the nail knot to attach my leaders I have used the straw but there is a small metal tool that tackle shops sell with usually snips and a hook sharpener attached, I being tight made my own and found it better and just as quick as changing a fly.Cheers John,http://www.firsttackle.co.uk/acatalog/Fishing_Tools.html 5 down
http://www.orvis.co.uk/orvis_assets/files/index.html is, I think, a better description. I have used it for a while and find it better on lighter lines. I use a straw but the idea of the cotton bud sounds worth a try.
Another option is
Quotehttp://www.graysofkilsyth.com/fishing-knots-gray's-loop.htm
which i have tried but did not like so much.
Braided loops may not be ideal but I find they last longer.
I find the neatest of all is to strip a couple of inches of the core and whip a loop in the bare core then coat the whip with fishin' glue. I've done it with a couple of lines and it's very good. I've got some set up with braided loops too but for the lighter lines I use the needle knot and a tapered leader as the basis of the cast.
Trouble with a nail/tube knot is what happens when you get snagged and pull hard.
Once in a while the outer plastic bouyant coating will come loose and off it slides along with nail knot and all.
Now I don't ever want a really big fish to do that to me!
So I'm using needle knots, super glue and am still worried!
One that I am happy with is the old fashioned "strip the coating off (optional) and figure of eight" attachment to a small loop. It is a tad lumpy, but for a floater it places a pinpoint of added floatability at a crucial place which can be handy.
I use nail knots (tied with a tool), but I tie them maybe 20mm up the fly line and thread the leader through the core for that distance (using a sewing machine needle) and add a drop of superglue for good measure when pulling the butt piece into the fly line core. It is fine for trout, but I'm not sure I would want to pike fish this way as IrishfloatTube says.
Alex
Is it such an issue when fly fishing for pike? Given that you are using wire traces of some kind and a small parakeet :D on the end, the need for a neat leader / line junction would seem to me to be less.
Quote from: admin on February 26, 2008, 01:36:01 PM
....and a small parakeet :D on the end....
(Since pike flyfishing got popular) You want to see the number of "manx cats" we have round here ..... come to think of it. Were they born with no tails ? :lol:
I use a little plastic dingus it has a hole in iether end - you put a tiny knot in the fly line and the same in the leader after putting through the holes and then tighten...does the job ok but not perfect!
What's wrong with whipping a loop in the end of your line and then attaching your leader with a blood knot - worked well for me for years and I've never had a problem with presentation, well that's not strictly true but that's more likely due to bad technique! And its simple with modern plastic line you don't even need to whip the loop, simply use a healthy quantity of super glue. That doesn't look as nice but it is very effective.
MommaPete
Quote from: MommaPete on March 24, 2008, 06:36:07 PM
What's wrong with whipping a loop in the end of your line and then attaching your leader with a blood knot - worked well for me for years and I've never had a problem with presentation, well that's not strictly true but that's more likely due to bad technique! And its simple with modern plastic line you don't even need to whip the loop, simply use a healthy quantity of super glue. That doesn't look as nice but it is very effective.
MommaPete
I have just done exactly that with a new sink tip line ....................
Never had a braided loop part but then again I add a little whipping sealed with Fishin-glue as an extra.
Maybe belt & braces but the last thing I want is for a Trout to be towing 12ft of braided leader & tippet about.
Whatever means you use test it thoroughly.
My current floating line (which actually turned out to be less than buoyant yesterday) has had a loop stuck in it using superglue for about 10 years. Makes a superb little loop and a smooth transition too. The way that I did it was to turn about 1.5 inches back on its self and glue the length together leaving a 1/4 inch loop free. The loop is still perfect after all this time although the integrity of the line seems compromised now and I reckon thats due to age.
I have no problems using Cyanoacrylate on these lines - it has to be said though that my line is old and the newer lines may be a different plastic so caution will be required. Even so a leader tied on with a blood knot or loop shouldn't come off if the join parts and you've got a monster on!
And I have to say that I'd be a bit suspect of a figure of eight with hard plastic lines and with differing diameters of line! (I am a climber and it is the principle safety knot for us!) Also its fairly bulky (OK for wet fly men perhaps, Bruac) and the original question was about reducing the bulk of the join............. to aid presentation. :D
MommaPete
Figure of eight knot has always worked for me....
I generally fish a 3 or 4 weight line, and find a nail knot gives the least obtrusive join. I have tried using braided loops in the past, but they seemed to be a bit bulky and stiff on a light line?
I prefer core whipped back and a coat of fishin glue ,it goes through the tip ring no problem and maybe compensates for my poor casting/drift 'issues'. I am not so sure what thickness to start the leader with however ,as anything thicker than 0.37mm just seems bulky on a fine loop,plus all the knots at step downs thereafter.
J
QuoteThe nail knot looks good - I currently use it for my backing to fly line join. I'm going to try it for fly line to tapered polyleader now.
I tried that (the nail knot) with polyleaders a few years ago, Claretbumble, but found the join was still quite bulky and prone to snagging in the tip ring. On the other hand, it will be more streamlined than your current loop to loop. At the other end, I think your loop to loop is as good as any other method.
I must say I don't use polyleaders any more for trout, partly because I couldn't get a smooth join to the fly line and partly because I found them a bit splashy. I use a tapered mono leader to which I attach a finer tippet using the 2 turn water/surgeons knot.
Alex
I stopped using the polyleaders in favour of the tapered mono myself. They seem to last longer too.
Quote from: claretbumble on April 07, 2008, 09:36:39 PM
And how do you attach them to your fly line, admin?
I'm still experimenting. I have nail knotted some of then and on others made a loop in the fly line by stripping back to the core then whipping and super-gluing a very small loop. This makes a much smaller loop that any braided connector could. I then simply attach the thick end on leader using a half blood. As far as bulk goes the two methods are about the same, but the loop – blood knot arrangement makes it easier to change a knackered leader. I intend to try both this season.
That's me gone full circle now, I'm back making loops on et end of the line like I used to do years ago!
QuoteSo how do you get "a smooth join to the fly line" for the tapered mono's?
If you look at previous posts in this thread, you'll see we each have our own favourite methods. Many folk like the whipped loop method and I'm a nail knotter combined with a superglue connection, which means the mono comes right through the centre of the flyline. My method is impossible on a mono core line of course.
There have been previous threads on this same subject too.
Alex
I used to use braided loops, then for a while switched to either a heavy mono butt or a polyleader nail knotted to the flyline. Been using furled leaders for about the last year conected by loop to loop. Shorb loop in both ends of furled leader and a double walled braided loop on flyline.http://www.furledleaders.co.uk/twin-walled-leader-loop.html (http://www.furledleaders.co.uk/twin-walled-leader-loop.html)
Check this link, really neat loop.
Did ma heed in first thing in the morning
Davie :roll:
It strikes me that you are relying on the coating of the polyleader staying attached to the core. Can I suggest it may be as well to use the heaviest tippet you expect to use and test your arrangement to destruction to make sure it holds?
Alex
Quotecould the entire 6ft length of core be pulled out while playing a troot?
I was thinking of the portion within the braid, but you are probably right that it is sound enough for normal trout fishing.
Alex
what about Moser Minicons?
Olie Edwards swears by then; auld bugger that he is..................... :D
Quote from: admin on May 23, 2008, 09:13:43 PM
what about Moser Minicons?
Olie Edwards swears by then; auld bugger that he is..................... :D
That's what I use much of the time. Small double-walled braided loops. I've never had huge issues with them either.
I replaced one of my fly lines at the start of the season. The flyline happens to have one of those "welded" loops built in. Anyone here have any thoughts on them?
.D.
I've a Rio midge tip line with a welded loop. Find it a bit bulky really but I've not chopped it off - if it was my dry fly line it would have been long gone.
Norm
I should say that I like to attach my leader by the Superglue technique.
http://www.flyfisherman.com/skills/dwnoknot/index1.html
I pretty much use this for my dry fly only set up, however I've just turned my double taper 4 round and try as I might I can't feed the needle into the fly line :( I manged the other end, can't figure out why not this end, it simply seems too thin :? Anyway, I've attached a vey neat braided loop instead (see photo).
Norm
Quote from: wee bri on May 26, 2008, 10:15:55 PM
I've only come across the Scientific Anglers Sharkskin line with this welded loop .D.
I'd imagine it should be a little neater passing the rod rings given that it's factory made though.
Bit pricey at ?70?
Are there there manufacturers doing this?
How have you found yours?
wee bri.......
It's another Scientific Anglers line (one of those Mastery ones - cannot remember which). I've only fished it a few times - one positive thing I can say is that the tip floats well- probably because it is sealed. I don't know how long that will remain so.
.D.
QuoteI've just turned my double taper 4 round and try as I might I can't feed the needle into the fly line
Have you tried a sewing machine needle Norm? It makes life a lot easier.
Alex
Quote from: haresear on May 31, 2008, 10:09:43 PM
Have you tried a sewing machine needle Norm? It makes life a lot easier.
Alex
Aye, Alex - always use one, I have a selection for different line thicknesses just cant seem to get it to work this time. No big deal, i'm not getting out much so no time to worry about it.
Norm
Quote from: wee bri on May 27, 2008, 12:15:50 AM
I've used the Dave Whitlock method which I think you posted about previously Norm and I do like it but with 3 and 4 line weights I've found it to be tricky to do too.
I even tried heating the needle a little but the plastic coating tends to go a bit rigid.
I use this superglue method on 3-4 wt floating lines and never had a problem and float really well, it makes a great connection delicate presentations.
I find the easiest way to do this is to use an old tapered leader for the section that I will be attaching, threading the tippet end of the tapered leader through the sewing machine needle eye makes it much easier, pulling the tapered leader through the fly line all the way to the but of the leader and then can be glued into place and a perfection loop added to attach new leaders via a loop to loop.
I wouldn't really use this method for anything heavier, prefering a needle knot for my 5 through 8 weight floating lines and braided loops for my 9 through 12 weight floating lines (saltwater rigs)
Regarding welded loops, these are much more common these days, though before you rush out to cut these off, they do serve another purpose other than a nice clean connection. Manufacturers make fly lines float by mixing in tiny glass spheres/bubbles, the reason that tips a prone to sinking (other than water getting into the core at the tip) is that this is the thinnest part of the fly line and thus have the least amount of spheres between the core and hard outer layer. With welded loops on the Rio and Scientific Angler lines, they are able to increase the amount of spheres around the welded loop and thus reducing tip sinking (called Dry Tip Technology for SA and Super Flotation Technology by Rio)
some great info. there Southfly
I was busy replacing a connection so I decided to take some photo's.
(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/gpbataille/IMG_0573.jpg)
Here I've threaded a sewing needle up the core, I like to have a loop at the end of my connection so I can change out leaders as I use this line on more than one rod and find that different leader configurations are required on different rods for fishing dry flies. If you plan on attaching your leader permanently, then use a sewing machine needle so you can thread the opposite direction. I've threaded the 1cm up the core here as I will be using a superglue connection, if you want to use this method for a regular nail knot you can get away with allot less. Regarding the leader, I've already pre-tied my loop at the but, this makes it much easier than tying the knot afterwards.
(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/gpbataille/IMG_0574.jpg)
As you can see here, I've threaded the tippet end to the tapered leader through the eye of the needle and pulled it through the core up to the butt section. At this point you can proceed with either a nail knot or do a superglue connection. If you are going to make the superglue connection, remember to sand the leader section that will be glued into the core. This serves two purposes, to create surface area for the glue to adhere to and also removes the oils that your grubby paws have left on the leader.
(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/gpbataille/IMG_0579.jpg)
The finished product
Great SBS, thanks for that. Has anyone tried threading folding over that nylon and threading both ends up through the flyline to leave a superglued loop? A bit like the kilsyth attachment without the knot. I've not tried this yet.
The photos are very clear, thx.
If while the sewing needle is stuck into the line, a little heat is put on the exposed part of the needle, the heat will soften the line covering, taking a "set". Now when the needle is removed the hollow tube shape remains for good.
This means that the mono leader butt can be replaced at the waterside when required with no special tools and needles required. Just use the clipper or scissors to cut a wedge shape on the mono as it goes down the tube faster.
Also: Those of us who use the "figure of eight line knot - leader loop" have had the advantage of added floatation in the line tip for a very long time due to the concentrated point of flyline covering material in that figure of eight.
But a knot makes less water disturbance than a loop when considering line:leader connection. That really only matters when retrieving the fly for nymphing/wet fly.
I have now gone over to the needle / nail knot that Haresear uses. It is vastly better than any other method I have tried.
Always a nail knot for me - they're actually very easy to tie - it's like everything else once you've got the knack.......
It's never let me down and I use it for trout, sea trout and salmon.
loops make too much of a splat on the water for me - might be my casting but I don't think so cos the nail knot doesn't do the same.
I nail knot an 18" length of 8lb (for trout/sea trout anyway)nylon on at the start of the season and it lasts all year.
Colin
Quote from: admin on March 22, 2010, 06:11:37 PM
I have now gone over to the needle / nail knot that Haresear uses. It is vastly better than any other method I have tried.
I like it because it is streamlined, light and strong. I don't fancy putting my faith in superglue alone. I don't want to lose my trout of a lifetime because I trusted in a dab of Zap A Gap over a knot :)
Where the needle knot falls down is where you are chopping and changing, using different leader configurations all the time. Having said that, I can change leaders in no time at all, using a sewing machine needle (I always keep one in each fly box) and a nail knot tool.
I can certainly see the attraction of say, a whipped loop there and I will still use the welded loop on a couple of my lines but for my lighter gear like the #4 outfit, the needle knot wins it for me.
Alex
Alex,
I used the needle knot yesterday as demonstrated by you in NZ. You can start your cast with just the leader out of the top ring and it runs out the same as the main line. It's superb. I don't and won't use glue. If you test the knot I don't think it's required and glue just hardens the line and causes the coating to fracture after a while.
Needle and Zap a Gap for me.
Thread tapered mono leader through the hole in tip of flyline, I aim to only use about the 2.5ft of leader where the taper is really acute. Roughen the leader before applying glue and pulling the glued section into the flyline. I've tested this to destruction and it's unelievable strong. Saying that I put a short 2mm whipping over the tip of the flyline, applied by holding leader and line and spinning a flytying bobbin around the line, with thin stretchy thread this bites in so deep that the whipping is flush with the surface of the flyline.
For those who might not think it's that strong, try it on an old flyline you'll be amazed and it's the best joint for smoth transition of energy from flyline to leader.
At the business end a 1mm Roman Moser leader ring and that's it for the season. I have tested them at the end of a hard season and seen no discernable weakening of the joint, but I always change them during the winter.
Cheers
Richard
QuoteI aim to only use about the 2.5ft of leader where the taper is really acute. Roughen the leader before applying glue and pulling the glued section into the flyline. I've tested this to destruction and it's unelievable strong. Saying that I put a short 2mm whipping over the tip of the flyline, applied by holding leader and line and spinning a flytying bobbin around the line, with thin stretchy thread this bites in so deep that the whipping is flush with the surface of the flyline.
For those who might not think it's that strong, try it on an old flyline you'll be amazed and it's the best joint for smoth transition of energy from flyline to leader.
At the business end a 1mm Roman Moser leader ring and that's it for the season.
Does this mean you reel the Roman Moser ring inside the rod rings when you get a fish Richard? I did this once on a good (wild :)) rainbow and when it took off again I was very uncomfortable with the ring clattering through the rod rings. That's why I abandoned the leader rings, although they could be useful at times.
Alex
Quote from: Alan on March 23, 2010, 01:18:31 AM
a fiver for anyone that can pull ma zap a gapped joins out :lol:
You're on :lol:
Quote from: haresear on March 22, 2010, 10:48:15 PM
Does this mean you reel the Roman Moser ring inside the rod rings when you get a fish Richard? I did this once on a good (wild :)) rainbow and when it took off again I was very uncomfortable with the ring clattering through the rod rings. That's why I abandoned the leader rings, although they could be useful at times.
Alex
Yep. Not ideal and I don't always use a ring (last year I used it all season and had no problems) the smallest size 1mm I think is fine I like the method as it gives the best turnover I've ever had but I don't want to keep doing it everytime my tapered mono section gets too short, hence the ring. I actually use an 0x tapered leader to get the taper I'm looking for and then level mono from that. Ultimately the energy transfer fades as wind resistance takes over in fine nylon.
I agree with Alan about how strong they are. We did a test in the store and snapped the core of a flyline before the joint gave out(I seem to remember the line broke at about 34lbs. Not saying with the frequent flexing of the joint it might not weaken overtime but it doesn't concern me. We tested the joint just glued and with a single whipping over a 2mm section of the hidden leader and no glue. After that I had absolute confidence in the method and would suggest it to all.
Think I lose more fish to wind knots then anything else in the course of a season.
Try a few test yourself and you'll become a believer. Only take 40mins and an old flyline.
Cheers
Richard
Quote from: Fluffflinger on March 23, 2010, 09:04:11 PM
Think I lose more fish to wind knots then anything else in the course of a season.
That probably goes for most Richard. The tailing loop has a lot to answer for and I wonder if any fly fisher ever eliminates them completely. :(
I wonder why no manufacturer has come up with tiny 10lb bs high abrasion nylon rings. It would seem to solve the ring rattling though the eyes problem.
Malcolm