This may be obvious, but it isn't to me.
The catch return forms I have in front of me both ask about fish weights, but looking online some catch returns are quoting fish lengths.
As a lot of fishing is now C&R, even when it doesn't have to be, what are you meant to fill in.
Only the fish removed from the water (ie killed where you can then weigh them).
Weigh all fish, even if you return them (not a good idea from the fish point of view, so I suspect this is not the case)
Put in a nil return even if you have caught lots of fish, but returned them.
I suspect the answer is to ask each individual angling association as to what they want done, but are there any general principles here that I should be aware of.
Thanks,
Graham
May differ in various places, but here these things are "take" returns, not "catch" returns. So if you catch ten fish, but only kill and keep four, then your return would be four fish.
In quite a lot of cases/places returned salmon and seatrout are also noted, usually with estimates. What any particular association, club, owner, etc. wants on the form would have to be specified.
One cast iron rule here is that killed fish MUST be entered on the form immediately. If you are stopped with fish in your possession and they are not on your return form you will be charged with poaching and usually lose your fishing licence ( for life!). That means you could no longer fish anywhere in this country.
TL
MC
Mike,
Thanks, that makes sense, its confusing that they often seem to be labelled as "catch" returns.
Useful point about having a fish in your possession that isn't on the return, but the return forms I have seem to be completed annually, so I assume this only applies with day tickets.
Graham
In Scotland salmon (and perhaps sea trout?) fishing rates (just a tax paid to government) are based on catches for the beat, so it is, I think, a legal requirement to submit returns. No legal stuff for other fish, but some owners and clubs do insist on returns being completed. They are all different, some are fish killed only, some include returned fish. I have to put my hands up and admit I never do unless asked then I just take a rough guess. I never have been much of a form filler. :lol:
Thanks Fred,
I'm not very good with forms either, but there is a threat that if you don't send them in, even nil returns, they may refuse you a replacement license.
In some respects it seems a shame not use this as a way of monitoring the water, but in practice with these things whether its fish or other things, people often make it up.
I know of one case of a landowner sending in water quality monitoring results over several years. When they came check the equipment he had no idea where it was and had to admit to just making up the numbers !!
There is also the famous case of Nigel Lawson as a student doing war work monitoring troops boarding trains, which contributed to restructuring the railway services to improve troop movements around the country. Years later he admitted to just making his numbers up and reckoned that most of the students employed to do the counts had done the same thing.
Graham
Quote from: myotis on August 02, 2012, 02:08:23 PM
Mike,
Thanks, that makes sense, its confusing that they often seem to be labelled as "catch" returns.
Useful point about having a fish in your possession that isn't on the return, but the return forms I have seem to be completed annually, so I assume this only applies with day tickets.
Graham
Well, I think it's basically historical, at one time the "catch" would also be the take, and this became common usage.
The term is also used by professional fishermen to indicate what they have actually taken. This of course is often more or less synonymous with what they have caught. Other terms are used for stuff they don't take, "bycatch" being one such term.
The catch returns here are used by the people who control the water to assess the state of the fish stocks, among other things.
TL
MC
I don't fish anywhere that asks for a return. When i did and if it asks for one on the permit I just put nil as I don't take any fish.
Probaly not in our interests to put in returns other than nil.
Nil= not very good fishng, quiet water.
10 x 3lbers = permit price doubles next year, water hammered with eejits.. :lol:
Quote from: admin on August 02, 2012, 04:09:55 PM
Probaly not in our interests to put in returns other than nil.
Nil= not very good fishng, quiet water.
10 x 3lbers = permit price doubles next year, water hammered with eejits.. :lol:
Makes the catch returns useless for assessment. Might also result in stocking, or even overstocking, which is best avoided altogether.
TL
MC
Some other info which might be of interest;
http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/homeandleisure/recreation/fishing/54713.aspx (http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/homeandleisure/recreation/fishing/54713.aspx)
http://www.kirkbystephen.net/catch_returns.htm (http://www.kirkbystephen.net/catch_returns.htm)
http://www.aberaeron-angling.org/page5.html (http://www.aberaeron-angling.org/page5.html)
http://www.allenvalleyanglers.co.uk/catch-returns (http://www.allenvalleyanglers.co.uk/catch-returns)
TL
MC
Ness and District Salmon Fisheries Board require an annual return of all fish (salmonids) "caught", including those released- which is encouraged. This applies to those with salmon rights but includes brownies in the reports. It has long been my understanding (though I am open to correction) that failure to make any return to the Scottish Keeper of Records over a certain period of years meant that the (salmon) rights reverted to the Crown.
A comprehesive returns system is something I do not wish to be involved with, but it has to be admitted that had such a system been in place over the years it would be easier to determine the history of a water and resolve debates as to whether the water contained pike, had been stocked or bucketed.
Estate game records are a valuable resource for those who have management of our wildlife and environment. Sadly they are used, selectively, to support the cause that the possessor supports, not enough are open to public scrutiny.
In a lot of cases it is in the terms of the lease;
QUOTE
What information do you require?
Only general information about catches will be made public, including:
- the number of fish caught
- the size of fish caught
- the type of fish caught
- the date of capture
- whether they were released or killed
- what bait they took
UNQUOTE
http://www.allenvalleyanglers.co.uk/catch-returns (http://www.allenvalleyanglers.co.uk/catch-returns)
Virtually all clubs here have it as a condition of membership. Failing to submit a return would be grounds for expulsion. "Nil" returns are also mandatory, but if you keep getting nil returns from the same people, ( as is often the case, I know I used to assess them), then you know something is up.
If somebody has fished ten full days on a good water and caught nothing, ( here you are obliged to kill every sizeable and otherwise legal fish you catch), then he is either absolutely useless or a liar. Quite apart from making any sensible assessment impossible.
Every visit to the water must be logged on your return form BEFORE you start fishing. Every fish caught and kept must be logged IMMEDIATELY. Other statistics may also be required.
TL
MC
It's a perverse situation where compliance by fishermen can mean increased fishing costs. Especially for,say, a club taking over a short lease in fishing. If all club members put in a true return the costs to the fisherman goes up whereas a partial or spoiled return means lower costs.
Thanks everyone, some interesting and insightful points.
Graham
Quote from: Malcolm on August 02, 2012, 04:40:36 PM
It's a perverse situation where compliance by fishermen can mean increased fishing costs. Especially for,say, a club taking over a short lease in fishing. If all club members put in a true return the costs to the fisherman goes up whereas a partial or spoiled return means lower costs.
On the face of it that would seem to be true, but in fact generous allowance is often made in an admittedly futile attempt to compensate for dishonesty. The dishonesty begins with the angler not filling out or falsifying returns.
There are no short leases here, the minimum lease term for a piece of running water, (the lessee must also be in the public interest and prove he can manage the water), is twelve years.
TL
MC
Quote from: Malcolm on August 02, 2012, 04:40:36 PM
It's a perverse situation where compliance by fishermen can mean increased fishing costs. Especially for,say, a club taking over a short lease in fishing. If all club members put in a true return the costs to the fisherman goes up whereas a partial or spoiled return means lower costs.
I heard, through a very unreliable grapevine growing over a shed, some years ago, that a salmon syndicate on a certain nameless river I know quite well were not recording their catches accurately for those very reasons.
Quote from: admin on August 02, 2012, 04:55:07 PM
I heard, through a very unreliable grapevine growing over a shed, some years ago, that a salmon syndicate on a certain nameless river I know quite well were not recording their catches accurately for those very reasons.
I think I'm correct in saying that the Tay salmon board levy is £30 for a Salmon and £15 for a sea trout, regardless of whether the fish is killed or returned it must be paid by the owners of the fishing. It is a legal requirement for catch returns for migratories to be submitted, in writing, to the government by the board, by a certain date at the end of each season. So this responsability is cascaded down to the various owners of the fishing.
The "levy" is a real problem for my angling club. A good year sees us subsidise the fishing as the cost of caught fish is more than the income from members and daytickets. We made the situation a bit easier by simply ammending the date for the end of the sea trout season to finish at the end of August as most of the fish caught after that date are coloured. As they are no longer "in season" they don't need to be declared!
Trout are different but basically we ask for two numbers - fish returned and fish killed. Visiting anglers are very poor at returning any catch returns.
All our catch returns are done on weight so there is plenty of guesstimating goes on (all my trout weight 8oz!).
Norm
On the Abercorn club that manages the lower reaches of the River Gryffe we like Clan Ford's club & indeed any club that has Salmon & Sea Trout in the catches are obliged to submit returns at the end of the season as some of our leases are through directly or indirectly Crown Estates.
Now our wee river whilst primarily a Brown Trout venue has been seeing good runs of migratory fish over the last 10 years.
In days past the river was classed
Brown Trout, Grayling & occasional Salmon.
Now I can sympathise with clubs when indeed if they do give accurate returns & in doing so find that they pay more for their fishing & worse case scenario that the riparian owners that we rent for go for the fast buck & rent it out to the highest bidder so I can see why a club might "cook the books" so to speak.
Tight Lines
Quote from: Highlander on August 06, 2012, 10:32:40 AM
Now I can sympathise with clubs when indeed if they do give accurate returns & in doing so find that they pay more for their fishing & worse case scenario that the riparian owners that we rent for go for the fast buck & rent it out to the highest bidder
Exactly Alan. Be honest and some owners will simply shaft you.