People may find fly casting difficult because ..........

[scotty9]

been thinking on it all morning(when im supposed to be doing other stuff)

are explanations confusing because there is too much detail...or is it because they are distilled down too much?

That's too much of a generalisation, you need a specific person to tell you what part of a specific explanation they find confusing. As was said, you could explain casting through physics and maths and a couple of people would likely understand. There is always someone that will understand one explanation and another that won't understand it. It then becomes changing and manipulating that explanation until that person is able to understand. There is no formula, no rule, it's a one-to-one individualistic basis. Maybe I'm missing something here but I think that is as clear as day?

[Wildfisher]

It then becomes changing and manipulating that explanation until that person is able to understand.

In which case by the end of the hour lesson he may be none the wiser.  Is it beyond possibility to relate the basic concepts to things  a person who has never held a rod before is familiar with?

[scotty9]

In which case by the end of the hour lesson he may be none the wiser.  Is it beyond possibility to relate the basic concepts to things  a person who has never held a rod before is familiar with?

Isn't that what Alex said? And that's the kind of thing I mean by changing and manipulating the explanation. I think Sandy had a very good point about feel - I reckon I can take a right handed caster, cast their rod with my left hand and let them feel the motion and vice versa. You must be able to feel it. I got a double handed lesson down at tweedswood after my assessment, first thing that happened was my hands on the rod with the other guy casting it so I could feel what a good cast felt like. You need that brain trigger! To be honest I don't think debating this is ever going to reach an answer and there is only one way you can ever better it/learn about it and that is to do it. First hand experience with people - the casting club is great for that actually. And the hourly thing - there isn't anyone who won't tell you that it's an unfortunate position to be in. A leisurely paced 5 hour lesson would be so much more beneficial.

What is the basis for the arguments in this thread out of interest? Is it experience of poor explanations or is it just thoughts on the matter?

Breac - I'm afraid I'll have to agree to disagree  . Elbow down casting is so limiting and massively less efficient than the use of the elbow - bring the shoulder in to play and realise that keeping the elbow down is hell! Works on beginners too - the few i've taught have come on very well. Taking the bottom hand out of play with the double hander, there are some VERY high profile casters, maybe all? that would disagree. Am I understanding the double hand thing correctly? You would then only be using the top hand?

[Malcolm]

Scotty,

I think Breac has a point on two things

First there are a few variants as far as salmon casting is concerned. There is the classic Scottish Spey which is driven more by the top hand. This is the style I have always used. It's also the style used by a guy I think is the best spey caster on the River Leven. He really is first class. The "bottom hand dominant" style is Scandinavian in origin it's really on the up at the moment particularly for use with shooting heads and used very often with shorter rods. This is the cast that Jim (Teither) was showing to me over the past couple of weeks. 

As far as holding a book under the arm I can see the point in this: one of the worst things in casting is a flying elbow and casting with the arm a long way from the body. There was a girl who came to the club who had both these faults but when her casting became more compact and closer to the body she improved immensely. So while no one would suggest being quite so rigid as the be able to cast with a book under the arm it's a recognised coaching technique to exaggerate something in order to cure a fault and Breac did say he used it as a teaching aid.

Leaving the rarified world of distance casting aside it seems to me that the compact stroke has huge advantages - a higher backcast and good tracking. It's also very powerful.

Malcolm   

[Wildfisher]

The late American fly casting guru Mel Krieger said there are two types of  fly casting student.

Engineers and poets.

The engineers  don?t only want to know how they also want structure and to know why.

The poets just want to learn by watching doing and feeling.

I?m an engineer.

The poet's way  is inefficient and slapdash.

[scotty9]

The late American fly casting guru Mel Krieger said there are two types of  fly casting student.

Engineers and poets.

The engineers  don’t only want to know how they also want structure and to know why.

The poets just want to learn by watching doing and feeling.

I’m an engineer.

The poet's way  is inefficient and slapdash.

I like that, what's a bit of both? I'm a bit of both, you have to see but I definitely need the why.

Malcolm - that is fair enough, however ask Andrew about the bottom hand! I have never seen anyone cast a double handed rod better and with such smoothness. My knowledge is severly limited on doubler hand stuff admittedly and I'm going by what Andrew says.

The elbow thing, I am not advocating letting it go out from the body, far from it. It stays aligned in front of the shoulder but can rise and lower. I can throw as high a backcast as I wish, a lot of the time I don't as I don't think about it, but you can put it near vertical if you wish. And by distance I did not mean extreme distance, it is very hard to maintain good loops and ease of any sort of distance if the elbow is kept lowered at a fixed point at the side. It has to rise, you need the work from the shoulder.

The cast should not be done as purely a pivot from the elbow. It is far too limiting if you ever wish to cast more than one specific cast. For the record, closed stance, elbow in front assuming I raise and lower it I can cast as far as I can with a more open styled cast. It is very powerful, I don't see how one could create power by not moving the elbow. If the movement is purely a forearm pivot movement you have nothing more than a tiny short arc with little power potential.

Teach keeping the elbow in by using a roll cast with the rod vertical, elbow infront of shoulder. Then you are not limiting elbow movement up and down yet still keeping it in.

If the weather clears up this week I will take a video of the fixed pivot style and the rising/lowering pulling style. That should be far clearer than words, it's hard to write, far easier in speech and demonstration. Now a cool one from sexyloops, put a stress ball inside your elbow holding it there and casting - now that is beneficial! I don't know anyone who casts with a fixed elbow at the side,  the upper arm should do the vast majority of the work in the stroke. How do you throw a javelin? With the elbow pivot or with pulling down power from the shoulder? Javeling throwing has been likened as the closest to fly casting. I understand about exaggerating to improve an aspect of someone's stroke but again an outdated method IMO. I would not have someone do something that could compromise or create problems with future progression. The tight roll cast method solved dave's quite extreme arm out style almost instantly.

[scotty9]

mel kreiger was also a pretty dreadful caster.

Very good instructor, his DVD's are interesting, animated guy! Pretty horrid caster though  :lol:

The feel thing, an instructor should be able to cast the rod with the pupils arm still on it, the left/right transfer is pretty useful! It was Ben that mentioned the left/right thing. That feel thing helped me massively with the double hander. I must be an engineer/poet hybrid.

[Burnfoot Loch]

Very good instructor, his DVD's are interesting, animated guy! Pretty horrid caster though  :lol:

He was indeed , But when it came to producing the goods there were few better Angler/fly-tyer/Author etc
very talented lad . My take on it is as long as you have the basics, can throw a reasonably tidy line , then thats enough to be going on.
At the end of the day its more about getting out on the water and enjoying that than getting too technical . Learning watercraft in my opinion is above whether you can roll , snake cast etc . Christ look what happened to Nick Faldo , David Duval etc once you start tinkering the natural feel you have goes out the window .

P.S Whatever way you approach your sport just enjoy it , ive been at it thirty years and still learning  :lol:

[Malcolm]

Scotty,

You misunderstand me I think! I am not advocating a fixed pivot far from it. The key to what I said is that:

"it's a recognised coaching technique to exaggerate something in order to cure a fault". If the problem is the flailing elbow or the extended arm then I can see that over-constraining that action for a short time could help.

[Fishtales]

Scott, it is easier, for me anyway, to stand behind the learner with my right hand covering theirs and casting. As long as they relax and let you do the work they get to feel the cast which is usually a big jump in their understanding of what they are trying to achieve. I also got them to hold the line in their left hand so that they could also feel the pull on the line, getting them not to move that hand was the hardest bit. I usually got them to stick the hand in their pocket