Latest for E and W rod licence numbers shows a 15% fall in one year and 40% over 10 years. About 575,000 down. In the last 15 years Finland down 30 percent, Denmark down 32 percent, California down 56 percent.
Angling licences not alone. In ten years football down 18, golf 27 and swimming down 24 percent.
Too much screen time .... :(
You'll still have the die hards that can now enjoy more water or greens without being disturbed. Trying to look on the plus side here.
How often do you see youngsters fishing these day?
Pretty much never. Most of the places we fished around here as kids have been destroyed by the EU and farmers either through pollution or abstraction for irrigation. The Brothock Burn from which the town of Arbroath takes its name was a great trout stream in the 1960s. It was stuffed with fish, water voles etc. It has been pretty much trashed. The mass fish kills by agricultural poisoning from herbicides and fertilisers started in the 1970s. The Elliot Burn south of the town is the same.
Things change of course and it's not the same everywhere, but at the current rate of take up fishing could be dead in Scotland within a generation or two. I suppose the overarching question is should we worry about it?
When I was a child almost everyone I knew fished. Looking to give away some of my tackle, I found none of my nieces/nephews and their children do so now.
It's not just participation that is the problem. My sailing club cannot find people, especially younger ones, to join the committee and do the work necessary for the club to operate – not helped by ever-growing red tape. My son's small golf course has the same problem even worse.
People, perhaps for various understandable reasons, just want to turn up and take part in the activity. But they do not have the time or inclination to do the work that enables that activity. Yet there is never a shortage of people to complain if things are not to their satisfaction!
We started our fishing careers harassing perch and pike in the local quarries, ponds and lochs. The farmers saw the quarries as handy places to dump their rubbish - I can still smell the tons of rotting potatoes dumped in one of them that finished it as far as fishing went. Of course the farmers didn't want people on their land fishing, so it was win win for them. Other quarries were filled in for "health and safety" reasons (great excuse for a new landfill). Bottom line is there are precious few places youngsters can just spontaneously go and fish now. It's all permits and pre-planning now. But as I said, things do change and perhaps we just have to accept that and move on. There are loads of other healthy outdoor activities.
Lots of kids are still fishing over here. We are lucky that the sea is free and full of fish, and no one is really fussed if you throw a worm or spinner in most of the trout lochs, and a few of the migratory systems.
But
I think one important point is that the kids can come and go as they please, free of all the rules associated with so much fishing nowadays.
Quote from: Laxdale on November 06, 2018, 11:18:35 AM
I think one important point is that the kids can come and go as they please, free of all the rules associated with so much fishing nowadays.
Spot on. That's the way it was here when I was a kid. We spent as much time climbing trees and exploring as we did fishing when we were out fishing. Kids have to be free to develop their interests. Most places were free to fish (even the Kinnaber beat on North Esk :shock:) . Local club junior membership was 5 bob!
This is a real issue and all of the above is spot on. Kids need a playground to develop the interest - the likes of Lewis/Harris and other areas can still offer that. I've put some real effort into getting kids in my local area into the sport, but a lack of free and/or bandy waters, where you can go and just mess about for a day makes it very difficult. You feel bad asking parents for a tenner so that their kid can go and fish for stockies against the clock for a few hours, and it's so far removed from how most of us got into it that it's actually a bit depressing. Organised fun, with a card full of rules, is a poor substitute for being allowed to explore a loch or river on your own terms. These places can also be far from easy, with the levels of catch and release now practiced. I've seen many kids blank and know that it'll be a hard sell to keep them interested.
Rivers offer a bit more a back to nature experience, but they can also be ridiculously priced - especially if there's even a remote chance of salmon being involved.
I'm not sure what the answer is, but something needs to change. Not just to keep the numbers coming into the sport, but also for the good that the sport can do for kids themselves - especially given how other things have changed and the increase of screen-time etc.
Andy T
One thing I've noticed at a loch I fish is an increase in walkers and the day trip "selfie" crowd.
During the 70's and 80's, you hardly ever saw another sole but the car park is often full these days.
I still rarely see anyone else fishing this loch but the single track road up to it has taken a hammering recently.
I guess the internet makes wild places that were once rarely visited by these types much more trendy and appealing, what with all the photos and videos on social media.
Strangely though, it doesn't seem to have had the same effect on the numbers fishing.
I saw a few teenagers spinning for mackerel on the rocks in the summer, but they are the only young 'uns I've seen fishing this year, introducing my grandkids to fishing, they had a ball chasing stuff with a net on Lewis beaches and "helping" granddad landing and releasing wee flounders. I have taken my lads two crab fishing with a line, but they are moving back to England next week. I have some wee rods and reels, so hope to find some fishing somewhere near Perth. Keptie pond used to have local kids fishing on it, but some miserable old scroutem had the council ban fishing there.
There are few suitable loch near me but I have taken my wee boy to a local rainbow fishery and hes has had a ball.
In the defence of local clubs there are several offering free / cheap fishing to juniors. Laurencekirk offer free membership up to 15 yoa and Haddo House Angling offer free membership in first year to under 14 then £8.00/yr under 14 and £25/yr for under 16.
One issue that may be impacting uptake of juniors is that in this day and age it is not safe to let kids run free, I would not dream of giving my wee boy the freedom I had at his age. This is not due to the risks of hin hurting himself but the danger possed by strangers.
Quote from: burnie on November 06, 2018, 01:33:34 PM
I saw a few teenagers spinning for mackerel on the rocks in the summer, but they are the only young 'uns I've seen fishing this year, introducing my grandkids to fishing, they had a ball chasing stuff with a net on Lewis beaches and "helping" granddad landing and releasing wee flounders. I have taken my lads two crab fishing with a line, but they are moving back to England next week. I have some wee rods and reels, so hope to find some fishing somewhere near Perth. Keptie pond used to have local kids fishing on it, but some miserable old scroutem had the council ban fishing there.
When i was younger i used to fish the Perth harbour as a kid and there were loads of kids who would spend the day down there catching flouders, eels and the odd trout. But like someone has already said, fishing isnt as freely available and even the harbour area has been all fenced off now.
A serious question - does it really mater if kids don't go fishing these days when there are lots of other equally good hobbies they can pursue. Times and interests do change.
Quote from: admin on November 06, 2018, 03:05:05 PM
A serious question - does it really mater if kids don't go fishing these days when there are lots of other equally good hobbies they can pursue. Times and interests do change.
I'd base my answer on my experience, fishing took me to loads of places and had me out in all weathers having a great time without causing any serious harm to anyone, or anything. Contrast some of the acquaintance's who don't have the same hobby and they admit that their lives have been less fulfilled on reflection. Some who fished and gave it up express regret now, my other main hobby of wildlife photography came from being at the waterside when younger and an interest in the wildlife grew.
Good points there Richard.
When I was a boy just about all my friends fished. Out of all those I'm still in touch with I'm the only one who still does. That has to say something.
I think we have to accept that there is just far more on offer to take up kid's attention nowadays and fishing has a lot more competition. We also have to accept that fewer people are comfortable with the ethos of field / blood sports / killing for fun or amusement and that's what fishing is no matter how we like to dress it up.
Some parents will not allow their kids to go fishing or actively discourage them. Blood sports are under very close scrutiny now and the seemingly never ending bad press brought about by illegal killing of protected species by game preservers is not lost on the public. For example the latest mysterious disappearance of yet another 4 rare hen harriers has been all over the news like a rash today. I first heard about it on the national news this morning. All these sorry events chip away at the foundations and anyone who thinks they don't is in denial.
At 66 and a lifelong angler I'm questioning how I can justify fishing with all this negative stuff going on. Why would any modern parent not do the same?
Certainly south of the border, angling still has a fair amount of younger participants, particularly in the match fishing fraternity. I guess the perspective is different north of the border as up here angling was very much a fish for the pot, south of the border, if I had eaten some of the fish I caught from rivers and canals, I would have been very ill at best. Pollution and with it the lack of game species after the war years, meant that catch and release is very much a given in England and parts of Wales too. I often get some ribbing when returning sea fish that I do not wish to eat, I prefer to eat my catch fresh, rather than fill the freezer.
So from my point of view, I have never viewed angling as a blood sport, maybe very mis-guided, but it is a view that was very common south of the border during the debates around the time that lead shot was banned as fishing weights.
I see trout fishing as much more a pastime rather than any blood sport !
I hardly chap any wild fish these days, maybe one or two a season, if that.
It's all about the take for me now, couldn't care less if they get off. I've seen me cursing at losing fish in the past but not now. I guess that's another thing that changes as you get older.
We used to kill everything we caught above the size limit, times have certainly changed. I used to be naive enough to believe C&R would be viewed less harshly when in fact it is presented as being far worse, much more cruel and the pointless harassment - even torture of fish
My ex wife was certainly far from impressed by the ethics of it
Note I say ex wife :lol:
It's an argument we anglers will never win so it's pointless even trying. :D
As a child my mother used to throw us out of the house and tell us not to come home till dinner time (weather permitting), nowadays that would be a childline call followed from a visit from child services.
A lot (not all) youngsters now expect instant gratification on anything they do, patience is not often practiced, pity really.
Becky's two grandsons, Finlay - 12 and Caelan - 9 are both keen to go fishing. Especially Caelan, he is daft about it. Thank you Robson Green! :lol:
I do my best to get them out but it's a struggle finding anywhere where they can just go and fish without a massive palaver with permits and stuff. They are also both quite small and fly fishing is not really the best option for them right now. In summer the banks of the Lunan are downright dangerous thanks to the local farmers and general neglect from the local club.
Just try finding somewhere kids can float fish, ledger a worm or spin like we used to when we were kids. Everything is either screwed up or tied up compared to what it was back in the day. No wonder kids are not fishing. It was even worse up in Aberdeenshire where every puddle has been converted into a pricey stockie bashing venue with a token 6 foot diameter "bait pond" for the kids.
My nephew took up fishing when he moved to Lewis. He lived on the island for about 5 years, sea fishing, fly fishing, fly tying, he loved the lot.
He moved to the Perth area, does not fish at all now, said its all so much hassle that it just stresses him out, we are indeed luck to have so much available on our doorstep.
Quote from: johnny boy on November 06, 2018, 10:19:43 PM
My nephew took up fishing when he moved to Lewis. He lived on the island for about 5 years, sea fishing, fly fishing, fly tying, he loved the lot.
He moved to the Perth area, does not fish at all now, said its all so much hassle that it just stresses him out, we are indeed luck to have so much available on our doorstep.
Yes, I think that is one of the key reasons I traveled the whole way to Lewis to fish. In the end I enjoy the freedom to, basically, go where I like and do what I want without various people in yellow waistcoats with clipboards having an interest in my life. I don't need to plan getting a permit, or parking, or anything other than having the rod and reel in the back of the car when I drive off in the morning.
Fred is asking "what's the point?" but I think, as others have said, that the point in fishing isn't only about fishing. I often walk a lot when fishing, some days I enjoy that, or I'd take photos, or look at moss, or kill hundreds of hen harriers, or look at shielings, or look at stone circles or... It is impossible to quantify as some days when I go fishing I do fish for most of the day but on the majority of days the ratio of fishing to other stuff isn't great. Again I guess it is a lot easier to become diverted when there are 2000 lochs and the fishing is free than if you've paid a fortune and have restricted access etc. It is good to give kids the chance to get into that sort of stuff.
It is also handy that I am, basically, incompetent and so it isn't in my interest to expect to catch anything or to get too worked up about catching something, this makes for a pretty relaxed fishing experience :-)
Quote from: caorach on November 06, 2018, 11:14:05 PM
the point in fishing isn't only about fishing.
Absolutely true for me too. However it is possible to get everything you get out of fishing except the actual fishing without fishing if you follow me................ :lol:
It's like moving from catch & kill to catch & release - it feels odd to start with and takes a bit of getting used to but one day you realise you are enjoying yourself just as much without it.
I know what you both mean. For me these days fishing is partly an excuse to spend a day in the hills. But if I go out without a rod the trout always taunt me with the most phenomenal rises :roll:
Quote from: arawa on November 07, 2018, 06:37:27 PM
But if I go out without a rod the trout always taunt me with the most phenomenal rises :roll:
I know that loch .................................... :lol:
Never mind the weans. I continue to threaten to go somewhere different every time I come back from a trip from my usual haunts but trying to find permit info can be a wknd research job in itself.
Then there's the rules.
Ne spinning on a Sunday......
Ne wading on a Tuesday except if you've got chesties on......
Ne this or that on a Wednesday except if it falls on a Thursday......
It's going the same way as bowling clubs.... yes we have cheap drink but you canny come in unless you obide by some medieval rule book created by some clown that likes it that way.
Can't we all just go fishing, have a beer and don't be a dick?
Apologies for the offence that I have probably caused to any bowling club members.
:lol:
You have it just about spot on mate. :lol:
Every time I'm in NZ and experience the freedom just to go fishing anywhere I like the Pythonesque absurdities of fishing here at home is driven home again and again. :lol:
There are still a few places in the UK where you have just as much freedom, maybe your inability to realise that is why you group the whole UK fishing scene as useless and destroyed.
Was just thinking the same or that I must be wandering different hills.
There are certainly lots of lochs with small fish in them you can fish with the permission of the landowner (or without if you don't mind committing a civil offence) but with a few exceptions the overall quality of the fishing in them is not high.
I have only every come across on estate which refused me acces to fish. Some require purchse of a permit, which can now usually be done by e-mail and bank transfer, which is not great inconvienience. Many are free for the asking.
In all the well known trout fishing areas in scotland it is easy enough to get permits for many hundreds of waters and many of these provide excellent fishing by anyones standards. Consider the Forsinard angling Club, Assynt, Caithness, Durness and South Uist amoungst many others.
These days, by the age of ten, most kids are too busy downing six packs of monster energy while sitting on their playstation for hours every day. Never mind fishing, it's even become rare to see kids out playing football. No longer do young boys dream of one day playing for Scotland. Now they all want to become pro esports fifa players and social media darlings. It's a different world. Remember the days when you would actually see kids out on new bikes on Christmas day? :lol:
Quote from: admin on November 09, 2018, 09:10:30 PM
There are certainly lots of lochs with small fish in them you can fish with the permission of the landowner (or without if you don't mind committing a civil offence) but with a few exceptions the overall quality of the fishing in them is not high.
To be fair this doesn't describe the situation I encounter. There is a lot of debate, and it would be easily fixed by sitting down with a map until the fight started as to what counts as a loch, as to how many lochs there are on Lewis but claims tend to range from 1,000 to 2,000 and I believe that an agent once auctioned the brown trout fishing on nearly 900 named lochs. I could take you out every day for a fortnight to a different loch each day that would give us 1.5lb - 2lb brownies with the potential for fish to maybe 6lb though the big ones aren't easy. In the process we'd probably have a cast on 2 - 4 additional lochs we were passing each day, I have fished 41 lochs in a fortnight and 35 of them were completely new to me so this isn't a fantasy scenario. I've been doing this, or something similar, for nearly 30 years. I don't know all the good lochs, far from it, so you'd need to explore a bit as sometimes you stumble on really interesting stuff, so although I could probably manage 14 lochs with 2lb fish it would take you another 30 years to find 14 more for yourself and that is part of the fun, not following someone else around. As I've detailed previously I had a visitor out this year and between us we had about 30 fish for the day to 1.5lb but both lost much bigger fish, again that isn't a fantasy story and I don't need to tell you I lost a big fish when I didn't as that isn't useful and doesn't help anyone. This could hardly be called low quality fishing when you consider we are talking about genuine wild fish that often don't see an angler for one year to another, or if people are following me about trying to work out where I'm catching fish sometimes might see only 4 - 5 fishing days in a year. I'm investing in landmines so this figure will see a significant reduction next season.
None of this requires permits and permission is given by default so the most taxing part of the admin is finding a parking spot.
I also have a wide range of salmon and sea trout fishing open to me - some is free, some is through an association or club, and some is through a local estate. The association and club water is very reasonably priced and you can have a season on the Creed for around £100 with other places often coming in around £25 for the year so if you buy your permit on arrival there is no further need to concern yourself about getting permits. The local estates provide good fishing in sometimes spectacular locations for very reasonable sums and the admin is trivial as a simple phone call or email will sort everything out and there is even an angling promotion officer who will assist. It simply couldn't be easier unless someone actually lifted you out of bed and carried you to the river or loch side.
The other thing of interest relating to the quality of fishing lies in the past records. As everyone here is aware this has not been a good year on Lewis for salmon and sea trout. Out of casual and passing interest I took a look at some records dating back to before World War One. I'm sure that detailed statistical analysis would reveal some differences but to the Mk1 eyeball I can see no, or very little, difference in those records and in records from the recent past. Even back then there were years that were complete disasters with figures comparable to this season, and there were also years with lots of fish caught.
So, I can offer you free fishing, the freedom to fish where you like, high quality fishing, and fishing that even in a bad year is just like the good old days.
Quote from: caorach on November 14, 2018, 09:27:55 PM
Out of casual and passing interest I took a look at some records dating back to before World War One. I'm sure that detailed statistical analysis would reveal some differences but to the Mk1 eyeball I can see no, or very little, difference in those records and in records from the recent past.
When you start looking into past records they can be an eye opener. I am now less convinced than ever that salmon farming has been responsible for the demise of migratory fish in Scotland. Things may just be returning to normal after a long period of abnormally high catches. Sure it has had an impact as has rod and line fishing and netting but the decline (or return to normal - however you want to look at it) is country wide.
Records, especially rod caught catches, mean nothing on their own.
Who was netting/trapping what and where they were doing it needs to be factored in.
Records of netting/trapping would at best be unreliable!
Quote from: Laxdale on November 15, 2018, 10:23:34 AM
Records, especially rod caught catches, mean nothing on their own.
Who was netting/trapping what and where they were doing it needs to be factored in.
Records of netting/trapping would at best be unreliable!
For sure. Back in the day netsmen, anglers, fishery managers etc were under far less scrutiny. Times have changed, but you guys still seem to do well enough despite the alleged demise of west highland stocks. Perhaps you guys are just better salmon anglers and know what you are doing? There certainly appears to be a lot of conflicting information.
We were away for a week in June in the Gairloch area. The owners of the cottage we rented were both Gairloch born and bred, lived their whole lives there crofting. Colin was a leading member of Gairloch angling club and told me straight that the demise in migratory fish was not the fault of the salmon farmers. The fishing in general was poor compared to what it once was and angler numbers, both visitors and local members are well down. There was just not the interest these days. Oddly some of the things he blamed bore a great similarity to the stuff Andy has found on Uist - in particular he mention clogged up spawning burns and general neglect. He also had a great dislike of seals - but that does not account for the overall drop in quality of the trout fishing in the lochs.
I disagree that there has been a drop in the quality of the trout, it may have dropped from the most recent past but if you look at average catches 20 years ago the average size is up.
When I started fishing a pounder was a fish to savour, I may not have been particularly good at fishing then (and now) but I did know a lot of anglers and the same held true with them.
Yes, big fish were caught, just nowhere as many as there are today (in my experience).
Quote from: johnny boy on November 16, 2018, 02:21:19 PM
I disagree that there has been a drop in the quality of the trout, it may have dropped from the most recent past but if you look at average catches 20 years ago the average size is up.
When I started fishing a pounder was a fish to savour, I may not have been particularly good at fishing then (and now) but I did know a lot of anglers and the same held true with them.
Yes, big fish were caught, just nowhere as many as there are today (in my experience).
If you fish lochs with either agricultural or aquaculture nutrient input, that is entirely possible.
I sorted out the catch returns for SAA for quite a few years, and lochs like (big) Langavat were remarkably consistent with regard to the average size of trout caught. (Apart from the catch returns from the usual suspects who always caught trout bigger than anyone else :lol: :lol:).
Quote from: Laxdale on November 16, 2018, 06:09:39 PM
If you fish lochs with either agricultural or aquaculture nutrient input, that is entirely possible.
I sorted out the catch returns for SAA for quite a few years, and lochs like (big) Langavat were remarkably consistent with regard to the average size of trout caught. (Apart from the catch returns from the usual suspects who always caught trout bigger than anyone else :lol: :lol:).
Out of interest what's the charr and ferox situation on that loch. ? I can't find much on Google .
Quote from: fergie on November 16, 2018, 09:43:48 PM
Out of interest what's the charr and ferox situation on that loch. ? I can't find much on Google .
I have had char out of it on the fly, as have many others. I also remember seeing a double figure fish cruising about for about 10 secs, and when a guy cast over it he caught a char!
I know of two ferrox that were caught by keepers. The late J Magarrity had a double figure one out of Aline at the south end (dead bait/downrigger), and the late D Whitehouse had one of about 9lb trawling a smolt at the north end.
The cheapest way of getting afloat on the loch is through the Stornoway Angling Association, the easiest way is through Aline Estate.
Kats talking about visiting her brother next year so it could be a opportunity to try and fish a Loch that I've wanted to fish for years. :idea:
After the general agreement about there being too much regulation in angling, thus deterring newcomers from coming in to the sport, guess what?
MSS is wanting salmon fisheries to record angler effort.
That will be a fun job for angling club secretaries, etc. :(
Quote from: Laxdale on December 05, 2018, 02:43:37 PM
MSS is wanting salmon fisheries to record angler effort.
Hope they don't monitor my effort. These days I spend as much time lying on the bank enjoying the view or even sleeping as I do actual fishing. :lol: