Do any of the members on this board have any experience or knowledge on moving your fishing club (or association) from simply a club, to a limited company, in order to protect your members from any liability that could arise if the club were found to be negligent in a serious accident. how easy is it and how costly might it be ?
From my experience, you are right to be concerned. When I became commodore of my sailing club I was advised (by a solicitor) that I could be held personally liable – and be sued – should, for example, a child be injured for some failing of the club organisation. With a harbour, slipways, clubhouse, and lots of children's activities this was a serious matter.
I mitigated the risk by ensuring that the club's insurance policy covered the committee for anything but gross personal negligence in performing our duties. Another problem was that the club could not legally own anything and so it had to be held in trust by individuals.
The club is now in the process of becoming a Scottish Charity Incorporated Organisation
https://www.oscr.org.uk/becoming-a-charity/becoming-a-scio
that solves all the issues and more including bringing some tax benefits. I am not an expert or involved in the change but I believe there are some downsides (although outweighed by the benefits) including some restrictions on spending and additional bureaucracy. The only significant cost is that of transferring legal ownership of our buildings to the new body.
The above link refers to the Scottish version but it mentions the English & Welsh equivalent.
Becoming a SCIO is a good way to go. I set up a mountaineering charity in 1992 which registered with OSCR and I was a main trustee for 25 plus years. I was always concerned about my liability risk as we owned and operated a 16 bed bunkhouse used by clubs most weekends and for full weeks. So a building with no warden and full of climbers "relaxing" after a day on the hill ! The bunkhouse profit was used to pay for training and safety courses. Once the SCIO option came along we put title across from the trust.
Quote from: arawa on January 30, 2019, 02:37:24 PM
From my experience, you are right to be concerned. When I became commodore of my sailing club I was advised (by a solicitor) that I could be held personally liable – and be sued – should, for example, a child be injured for some failing of the club organisation. With a harbour, slipways, clubhouse, and lots of children's activities this was a serious matter.
I mitigated the risk by ensuring that the club's insurance policy covered the committee for anything but gross personal negligence in performing our duties. Another problem was that the club could not legally own anything and so it had to be held in trust by individuals.
The club is now in the process of becoming a Scottish Charity Incorporated Organisation
https://www.oscr.org.uk/becoming-a-charity/becoming-a-scio
that solves all the issues and more including bringing some tax benefits. I am not an expert or involved in the change but I believe there are some downsides (although outweighed by the benefits) including some restrictions on spending and additional bureaucracy. The only significant cost is that of transferring legal ownership of our buildings to the new body.
The above link refers to the Scottish version but it mentions the English & Welsh equivalent.
excellent advice
thanks for that. the charity option is not quite right for us as we are a private club, it would also involve us having to comply with the"charity regulations" as well as company house legislation, we are thinking of going down the "limited by guarantee" route. either way looks like a fair bit of paperwork.A couple of local fishing clubs are also going down ( of have just went) this path. Looks like with all these "no win no fee" companies circulating around even small clubs need to protect themselves
Many lochs where boats were once hired to anglers no longer do so. Just too risky in today's blame and no personal responsibility culture. It's a great pity, but that's the way it is.
Have a word with SANA about this issue. I know, I know......
On this occasion I think they will be able to provide the information you require.
i dont know much about this however, is it not as simple as obtaining signatures on a disclaimer with something to the effect of.....
"if you fall and hurt and hurt yourself, get off your phone and look where your bloody well going.
dont go out in a boat with a hole in it
dont crash bash or smoke hash in anything
dont be a dick"
Quote from: Captain conger on February 09, 2019, 03:06:04 PM
"if you fall and hurt and hurt yourself, get off your phone and look where your bloody well going.
dont go out in a boat with a hole in it
dont crash bash or smoke hash in anything
dont be a dick"
:lol:
Quote from: Captain conger on February 09, 2019, 03:06:04 PM
i dont know much about this however, is it not as simple as obtaining signatures on a disclaimer with something to the effect of.....
"if you fall and hurt and hurt yourself, get off your phone and look where your bloody well going.
dont go out in a boat with a hole in it
dont crash bash or smoke hash in anything
dont be a dick"
If only......
Quote from: Captain conger on February 09, 2019, 03:06:04 PM
i dont know much about this however, is it not as simple as obtaining signatures on a disclaimer with something to the effect of.....
"if you fall and hurt and hurt yourself, get off your phone and look where your bloody well going.
dont go out in a boat with a hole in it
dont crash bash or smoke hash in anything
dont be a dick"
I am afraid not (according to a solicitor and an insurance company).
For example, our insurance company wanted a sign on a tidal slipway saying "Caution: this slipway is slippery" but the solicitor said that could be taken to mean we knew the slipway was slippery and had done nothing about it.
Just to complicate matters further, SEPA would not let us get rid of the growth on the concrete slipway by using lime because of a pollution risk! One bag of lime in the sea.....
And then public officials wonder why volunteers are not willing to come forward to run clubs etc.
Quote from: arawa on February 09, 2019, 04:12:31 PM
I am afraid not (according to a solicitor and an insurance company).
For example, our insurance company wanted a sign on a tidal slipway saying "Caution: this slipway is slippery" but the solicitor said that could be taken to mean we knew the slipway was slippery and had done nothing about it.
Just to complicate matters further, SEPA would not let us get rid of the growth on the concrete slipway by using lime because of a pollution risk! One bag of lime in the sea.....
And then public officials wonder why volunteers are not willing to come forward to run clubs etc.
I did not bother commenting before because your previous post was spot on.
When Stornoway Angling Association was in line for a lot of grant money to improve the River Creed and amenities, we were told, we had to become a limited company to get our hands on the money. We also got the best insurance deal we could find (the advice was to use SANA). Thankfully, the need for due diligence to be shown on the part of anyone making a claim against a club is making a bit of a comeback!
Quote from: Captain conger on February 09, 2019, 03:06:04 PM
i dont know much about this however, is it not as simple as obtaining signatures on a disclaimer with something to the effect of.....
Your signature on a disclaimer means nothing in the sense that your signature can't over ride the law. As an extreme example if I ask you to sign a bit of paper that allows me to beat you to death with my fishing rod this doesn't change the fact that it was murder and so the law still comes for me. Same with any other disclaimer - you simply can't sign away your rights in law. It then becomes a matter of "legal experts" and who can pay the most for one and almost every club, or person, is doing something that a well paid solicitor could contrive to paint as a failure in duty of care or similar. There is a requirement for "reasonableness" but unless you can afford to fund a legal team to prove you took reasonable precautions, or that the claim is unreasonable as any reasonable person should know that rocks are slippery, then you've no chance.
All of the above on disclaimers is 100% accurate. They are utterly meaningless in law.
Nor do warning signs. obviate corporate responsibility.
Minefield (sic).
yes the previous replies about signage / disclaimers are by in large accurate, however, if you take the sign for a slippery pathway as an example, you can take care of this through "Risk Assessments"
Oh No i hear you all say, not these things. All clubs should have a RA for all the tasks they carryout, or tasks that their members may carryout.
So you identify the risk, ie trip/ slip hazard, and you put in a counter measure to reduce ( not necessarily remove) the risk, ie wear suitable footwear , or use the handrail ( if there was one )
then this demonstrates that you have identified a risk and made a reasonable attempt to reduce the risk by offering advice and raising awareness of the risk.
I was going to mention Health and Safety policy statements but will leave that for another day... :lol:
This might be of help.
https://www.blackfriarsgroup.com/angling-club-insurance/
Do not forget cover for Employers Liability cover. "Smployee" is cast get wide for insurance purposes eg a club work party even though no-one is paid .
None of this comes as a surprise in this modern wonderful world we live in but jeezo, it is embarrassing that the human race who managed to get to space requires a sign to tell them that a SLIPway might be slippy....
That's up there with the nut packets with warnings that they might contain nuts.
These signs and warnings are putting the future of the Darwin awards at risk. And that would be a shame.