Something that does actually keep you warm during a typical Scottish summer, so say down to -5*C, but is not too bulky or heavy.
What do you use or reckon the best buy is?
I'm certain I saw Tom Baker fighting that in an episode of classic Dr Who. :lol:
Hells Bells! That is 1.5 to 1.8 kilos and a pack size of 11 litres! Very like Hamilton's original Buffalo bags with the optional layers.
The Terra Nova Voyager 800 at 840 gms and a 0*C rating would be very good. Also look at the Montane Featherlite5 at 765 gms and a 5*C rating. Both are ideal for a three season bag.I have both these bags and they are excellent.
A thin fleece top and bottom "raise" the grade downwards but both are good cosy bags. All Montane kit is pretty good value. Very popular with a lot of folk on the hills these days.
Quote from: Element on August 15, 2015, 11:01:38 PM
The only gripe I have is the back isn't as well filled (actually, I find many sleeping bags have the same issue) as the front & sides so I wear a thin bodywarmer to fix that.
E.
this is the same guy that complains about a quality, 100L rucsac weighing 2.5 kg..... :lol:
joking aside, the reason for the biased fill is that the manufacturers expect that the underside will be compressed by your body weight and therefore ineffective. this is a particular problem with down, of course. so there's no point putting expensive insulation there. the other assumption is that you will be using some kind of foam mat underneath and the rating of the sleeping bag takes this into account.
where this all falls down for me is the assumption that everyone sleeps on their back... :roll:
As luck would have it there is an excellent Mountain Hardwear Ratio 15 Q Shield 650 Down bag offered for sale in the for sale section. Even luckier, there is also an Exped Down mat 7 that will keep you warm on top of a surface temp of -20 plus.
You can find the spec and reviews for both on www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk (http://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk). :wink:
Have you looked at the Vango ones Fred? George got one a few years ago, can't remember which one though, and he says it is really warm and it packs down quite small for a synthetic bag.
This is a four season one and it packs down to 25cm x 19cm dia. and less than 2Kg.
http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/ultralite-1300-p292610 (http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/ultralite-1300-p292610)
I think it might be the 900 he has.
http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/vango-ultralite-900-sleeping-bag-p196173 (http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/vango-ultralite-900-sleeping-bag-p196173)
Packed 23 x 17cm and 1.5Kg.
I have an old Vango Venom 300 Sandy, down and only 800 gram. Packs very small OK in summer but it's not up to Scottish summers like this one.
I've got the Vango latitude 200 for a cheap doss bag you can't really complain it doesn't pack ultra small but temperature wise I think it's quite versatile I think I picked it up for £30 and would be happy to use it in most cases ive never tried it in winter but I think I will this winter if I'm too cold I'll just put a softie jacket on.
Quote from: Element on August 16, 2015, 08:18:12 AM
I have no complaints about the things weighing 2.5kg (wasnae me)
E.
oops, sorry! it was Sandy.. :roll:
Quote from: admin on August 16, 2015, 09:46:31 AM
I have an old Vango Venom 300 Sandy, down and only 800 gram. Packs very small OK in summer but it's not up to Scottish summers like this one.
Those aren't down they are synthetic bags. He had it at Moidart and night temps were just above freezing for a few nights and he said it was the warmest he had felt in a sleeping bag in a long time. He only wears light shorts and t-shirt at night and that is in May and at altitude.
sorry to disagree with you Sandy, but the vango venom is a down bag.
for what it's worth (since I generally avoid being drawn into discussions on gear), I would recommend the mountain equipment lightline SL as arguably the best all-round sleeping bag on the planet and one that will last you for a very long time. I will now sit back and wait for the anguished howls of those who believe you can get owt for nowt..... :lol:
Quote from: admin on August 16, 2015, 09:46:31 AM
I have an old Vango Venom 300 Sandy, down and only 800 gram. Packs very small OK in summer but it's not up to Scottish summers like this one.
one of the problems with sleeping bags is that you have to hold all that insulation in place with other fabrics to contain it and stop it moving around. there is a finite weight below which you just can't get, broadly speaking about 400g or thereabouts (someone will probably come up with a different figure, but you get the idea)
myself and my mountain marathon partner (Rich Talbot; now director of product for mountain equipment coincidentally, although I have no connections with the company myself) went through this exercise a few years ago when we'd become weight obsessed. we found that once you got below the magic 500g mark you pretty much ended up with bugger-all insulation. you were effectively carrying around a couple of sheets of fabric stitched together. one mountain marathon where we had smugly got our sleeping bags down to something ridiculous (about 350g), we paid the penalty for low weight and small pack size with an almost completely sleep-less night, brewing up to keep warm.
the next year we used proper three/four season down bags and carried more food! we were much higher placed too.....
price-wise, the only way to get light weight and small pack size that will still keep you warm is to throw money at the problem and invest in down. if you want to keep the price down and still get the performance you require, you will have to accept the weight and bulk penalty of synthetic insulation. plus they don't last as long as down.
before anyone has a heart attack on seeing the prices of quality down bags (cheap down is not the answer, trust me...), let me say that I sympathise with you completely; the prices are incredibly high. I own a north face down bag that is 30 years old and still serviceable and have a mountain equipment snowline that I bought 15 years ago. i'm bloody glad I bought it then as I couldn't afford to now!! :lol: although i'd probably find a way if I needed one..... :8)
ps Jim's mountain hardwear bag in the for sale section is a very good buy
Quote from: corsican dave on August 16, 2015, 12:26:50 PM
sorry to disagree with you Sandy, but the vango venom is a down bag.
I was meaning the bags I put up Dave.
Insulation Type: Synthetic
:)
Down certainly lasts. I still have my old Black's Polar - 4 season down bag (35 years old) It kept me warm camping on snow in the Cairngorms in February. It's a bit heavyweight for summer though and does not have a zip, so there is no way to ventilate it. It is also quite bulky and weighs 2.25KG
Quote from: corsican dave on August 16, 2015, 01:30:58 PM
one of the problems with sleeping bags is that you have to hold all that insulation in place with other fabrics to contain it and stop it moving around. there is a finite weight below which you just can't get, broadly speaking about 400g or thereabouts (someone will probably come up with a different figure, but you get the idea)
That makes absolute sense to me and (not just with the benefit of hindsight) is what I thought the problem might be. when you see it , it is obvious there has to be a critical bulk. My Vango 300 is fine when it's warm.
Asking a really daft question.
The price of down bags is astronomical and I question their value unless.you are doing serious expeditions during the winter. What is the difference between a down bag you can get from say Korea for around £70 that is around 2kgand a bag in this country of around £300. It seems these prices can't be justified.
Cheers
Paul
I also have a pair (they zip together, if required) of 37 year old, down filled, Mountain Equipment "Ice Dragons" that have served me well.
I think they cost me £60 each all those years ago.
They were used in an ice hole on Creag Meagaidh (near the top of Easy Gully) many years ago, warm as toast.
Bulky and heavy certainly, but they do the job.
Quote from: bibio1 on August 16, 2015, 04:50:39 PM
What is the difference between a down bag you can get from say Korea for around £70 that is around 2kgand a bag in this country of around £300.
It's the E.U. Pâté Foie Gras Directive. It keeps the cost of all goose products artificially high to protect the incomes of French farmers. :lol:
£300 for a good down bag is not required .... although you are going to get a great bag for that budget.
For the two bags I suggested on p1 of the topic I paid £179 each and I would happily use the Terra Nova or the Montane one in true frozen conditions which have not happened even in this summer! A foam mat is the key (or Thermarest or whatever).
Have no experience with good quality sleeping bags, I fail to understand the logic of the biased fill. As I understand it they under fill the back as it will get compressed. How many people sleep all night on their back? If someone feels cold will they not tend to adopt the foetal position?
Jim
Quote from: bibio1 on August 16, 2015, 04:50:39 PM
Asking a really daft question.
The price of down bags is astronomical and I question their value unless.you are doing serious expeditions during the winter. What is the difference between a down bag you can get from say Korea for around £70 that is around 2kgand a bag in this country of around £300. It seems these prices can't be justified.
Cheers
Paul
not a daft question, although the full answer would be more detailed than the thread requires. essentially; quality. bear this in mind: if the likes of mountain equipment, rab, phd etc could sell their premium down bags at more competitive prices, don't you think they'd do it......? as with all these things, there is generally a good reason for premium priced products. and we're not talking fashion products here.
here's a pretty good attempt at a full answer, for anyone who's interested: http://www.phdesigns.co.uk/the-truth-about-sleeping-bags (http://www.phdesigns.co.uk/the-truth-about-sleeping-bags)
i'm going to bow out at this point before people start telling me they can get the "same" thing from lidl for £50. :roll: you can't. (but yes, you can find products that will be more than adequate for your needs cheaper than the premium products)
Good article. I can't help feeling sleeping bags are a bit like fishing rods and that a large proportion of their cost is marketing and Labour costs.the best rod I have is a Norwich It does everything I need and is a pleasure. It knocks socks off all the high end rods by a country mile. The high end rods cost almost double and if you read the blurb they can even cook your dinner if you need them too.
What I'm saying is that I m looking for the Norwich version of a goose down bag.
Cheers
Paul
Quote from: bibio1 on August 17, 2015, 09:20:35 AM
What I'm saying is that I m looking for the Norwich version of a goose down bag.
I note with interest that a new David Norwich rod is £600 and a Fladen Vantage is £25
There are parallels. After using Sage and Scott I find budget priced rods clunky and would not like to go back to them.
The worst thing ever when camping is to be wet, cold hungry. A good tent and a good sleeping bag are essential. Synthetic bags are good, but if you want small size, low weight and warmth you have to go for down. As I said I bought a Black's Polar (expedition quality bag) 30 + years ago and still have it - it's too bloody hot though! :lol:
As Dave says you have to spend the money - it solves the hunger issue too - the lighter your gear the more food you can carry. :8)
I see to my surprise that the Terra Nova bag I recommended is now priced at £340. I paid £179 !!
The Montane Featherlight5 bag is still for sale at £160-170. Goes down to -4 or -5 and the "comfort rated" level is +5 which I think is assessed without any clothing layers on.
Quote from: admin on August 17, 2015, 09:57:06 AM
A good tent and a good sleeping bag are essential. Synthetic bags are good, but if you want small size, low weight and warmth you have to go for down. As I said I bought a Black's Polar (expedition quality bag) 30 + years ago and still have it - it's too bloody hot though! :lol:
As Dave says you have to spend the money - it solves the hunger issue too - the lighter your gear the more food you can carry. :8)
The one George has compresses smaller than my down bag (Nanok Performance -10). The two of them together are the same size as my Pro Action tent with the poles in, but the tent is a half size bigger than each of the sleeping bags if compressed with the poles removed, just to give you a comparison :)