Hi I'm new to the forum and have spent a very productive few days going through past posts. Firstly, it's a pleasure to see a site with none of the usual bitching and trolling. Anyway, I've picked up a good few tips but I'd be grateful if I could pick your brains a bit further. Sorry if this gets a bit long winded.
I only do loch fishing for wee brownies from boat or bank and I only get out a couple of times a year. To be honest most of the time I'm happy just being on or near the water enjoying the view and the craic. I occasionally have my moments but I really don't catch enough. I often blank when everyone around me is well into double figures.
I know my main flaw is my casting which I'm working on. I can manage a team of three flies but generally on a very short cast, maybe 9ft. (I'm using a 9' 5wt rod or a 9'6" 7 wt.) The idea of a 17' leader or longer that some guys use just terrifies the life out of me. So a short leader coupled with some less than stellar casting means that the fly line is often splashing down very close to the flies. Anyway, after reading through the forum I've got a few ideas and would be grateful for thoughts on the following or any other advice.
I won't ask about leader length as that seems to be a very personal thing but what should be the minimum distance between fly line and top dropper.
I see that a few guys never fish more than 2 flies. Is there is a big difference fishing 2 or 3 flies in terms of catching?
I've read about New Zealand droppers. I would have thought that keeping everything in line would help with tangles but changing flies would be a pain and I don't know how it would fish with wet flies. I was thinking of a compromise with a normal dropper for the bob and the other two flies tied on NZ style?
I know that a tapered leader isn't really necessary for loch fishing but I presume it wouldn't hurt?
Or do I just need to grow a pair, put on a 15' cast and start practising? :worried
Thanks for reading and for any help you can offer.
If you want to fish a 9-10ft leader just fish 2 flies, lots of people do that anyway for simplicity and sometimes it suits tactics, I like fishing a dry on the point with a sparse wet or spider on the dropper sometimes. 3 flies isn't the b-all and end all. Fish what you're comfortable with because that'll catch you more fish than trying to do what you think you should, there's not really any rules.
If you get better and want to fish three flies then go for it but fishing two flies well will be better than spending your time unpicking a birds nest.......I don't know what a NZ dropper is :worried
I only use a New Zealand style set up when I am on a river. Never tried it on a loch (yet). Its a length of tippet or nylon tied to the bend of the fly (a dry) with a nymph 18 inches to 2 feet below. Again the length of this is a personal thing. I found that if it is too short and the fish takes the dry the line gets tangles around the fish and the nymph fouls hooks it.
I like using NZ it as it helps the dry sit better on the water.
I agree with Alan. Fish what you are comfortable with which is why I only fish with 2 flies.
Once you sorted with that the hardest is selecting the right fly and size. We're all trying to get that bit right.
Billy
Quote from: Billy on May 19, 2015, 07:28:10 AM
Its a length of tippet or nylon tied to the bend of the fly (a dry) with a nymph 18 inches to 2 feet below. Again the length of this is a personal thing.
Billy
I fished a NZ dropper yesterday :roll:
Quote from: Alan on May 18, 2015, 11:54:47 PM
If i had to choose between length of leader and number of flies it would be one fly and max length every time.
couldn't agree more. can't remember the last time I tried more than one fly but it wasn't pretty and didn't catch me any more fish.
Fish with what you feel happy with. Once you are confident with your system you will start to catch fish because you will stop thinking that what you are doing is wrong.
I use a five foot tapered leader to ten feet of nylon with three flies. Three feet from tail fly to middle dropper; three feet from middle dropper to top dropper, which leaves approx four feet from top dropper to tapered leader. The total length is fifteen feet and I fish a ten foot #7 rod.
Top dropper is a dry/surface fly; middle dropper a winged wet; tail fly a nymph. If the fish are on top I swap the nymph and dry/surface fly around and use Mucilin on the cast to bring all the flies to the surface. Occasionally I will change the dry/surface fly for a floating nymph if I think the fish are taking nymphs just under the surface.
Unfortunately there is no quick fix, only trial and error will help you. If you are catching fish, even if it is less than others, don't worry about it because what you were doing obviously worked or you wouldn't catch anything :)
There is plenty of good sense up above there. Go for a tapered ready-made leader of 9' and then tie on maybe four feet of tippet to your first dropper then three or four feet to a tail fly. Leave it that, or only put on one fly. Another handy point about landing the line quietly onto the water is not to aim at the water at all but aim six feet above it. Then the line will sort itself out up above the loch surface and drift down and land down better instead of being aimed and cast at the water surface which is how a lot of crash landing comes about.
I only use the NZ dropper style on rivers. On lochs I have tied a dropper directly on to the bend of the bob fly before and caught fish, but I'm not keen on this and reverted back to the standard dropper set up.
When loch fishing in the traditional cast and retrieve style, I'm another who fishes no more than two flies. When I used three, most of my fish were caught on either the bob or the tail fly, so that coupled with the increased nastiness of tangles meant that I ditched the middle dropper in favour of a two fly cast.
As for leaders. I will use as long as possible, but mostly it will be about 14 feet, with a 9' tapered leader to which is tied a 5 foot extension with a two turn water knot. The bob fly is tied to the tag end of the tapered leader, so the distance from line to fly is 9 feet or just under.
Alex
Some good advise above. The majority of my fishing is on lochs, either bank, boat or tube.
What I would add is.
Do not worry about what everyone else is doing. I usually fish 3 flies on a 18 foot leader, my mate fishes 2 on a 12 foot leader and he catches plenty of fish.
Don't tie the dropper too long.
Maybe think about getting a cheap 10"6 foot rod until you are more confident.
Most importantly, keep at it and don't get frustrated. All of a sudden everything will click into place and you will away.
personally, fulling mill 4lb, 5 feet to top dropper and then 4ft and 4ft to other 2 flies = 13ft all in and i will use the same cast on maybe 3/4 outings, its all about practise and not trying to force the line out for distance but take things nice and easy and get into a rythm.
Many thanks for all the advice, much appreciated.
Hi if I am fishing dries and there is only a light wind I fish 3 but if wind picks up it is down to 2 to avoid tangles. With wets/nympths almost always 2 but there is no proper reason it is just what I am comfortable with. The solution for you is trial things and find out for yourself. Also when my leader goes over 15' I tend to get tangles regardless of wind which is no doubt my poor casting so I normally fish around 12' and I do catch enough fish.
Had a laugh the other week fishing a tiger buzzer on NZ style dropper below a dry, there was a cracking hit thrashing about then it was off, I assumed it had snapped leader or a poorly tied knot to fly. When I reeled in and examined there was no dropper at all connected to the dry. My dry was on a barbless hook so I assume that the dropper ran round the hook and straight off the hook during the struggle, not sure how to overcome that one?
Enjoy experimenting.
Quote from: desmondo on May 21, 2015, 10:00:10 PM
I assume that the dropper ran round the hook and straight off the hook during the struggle, not sure how to overcome that one?
drop of glue on the knot? you'll note i'm not a purist.... :8)
I fish 'NZ' style plenty, but have never seen the advantage in tying the tippet which is going to hold my nymph directly to the hook of the dry. What you're aiming for is the dry acting as an indicator for the nymph and maybe the dry taking a fish itself. The disadvantages of tying directly to the hook of the dry are a) it's more fiddly to tie the knot, b) the knot can slip off if you're using barbless hooks, c) the tippet tied to the hook of the dry can prevent proper hook ups if you get a take to the dry and d) if you decide to switch to dry only you're almost certainly going to have to tie on a new tippet. All of this can be avoided by tying on a 'normal' dropper and attaching the dry to this. So that's what I do.
I don't find tying a lnot to the bend of the fly any more fiddly than on to the eye :)
Quoteif you decide to switch to dry only you're almost certainly going to have to tie on a new tippet.
Not if you use a uni-knot :). I simply open up the knot (it is a form of slip knot), take the nymph and its length of mono off and keep it handy to be looped back on the bend of the dry when required. It saves time and because it is less bother than tying a new rig, I am more likely to change back to NZ style when required rather than soldiering on with the dry when it isn't really working.
I do however agree that the nymph tied off the bend of the dry can interfere with hooking fish that take the dry. I have also had the dropper slip off the bend when casting using barbless hooks.
Alex
Alex - I didn't explain myself properly. I don't know/use the uni knot so will take your word for it. What I was trying to get at is that if I'm fishing NZ style I will probably set up with a 9' tapered leader with about 4 - 4 1/2' of tippet on the end. The dropper for the dry will be somewhere between 1 and 1 1/2' down the tippet. If I decide to switch to dry only, I can just nip the flies off and stick the dry on the end (leaving the dropper with nothing attached makes no odds for presentation and I can switch back again) - but if I'd tied the nymph tippet to the hook of the dry, I'd only a 1 - 1 1/2' of tippet. This would be too short - I want a minimum of 3' tippet between the end of the leader and the dry.
But the uni knot sounds useful - must learn it/give it a go!
Quote from: past caring on August 17, 2015, 08:05:20 PM
Alex - I didn't explain myself properly. I don't know/use the uni knot so will take your word for it. What I was trying to get at is that if I'm fishing NZ style I will probably set up with a 9' tapered leader with about 4 - 4 1/2' of tippet on the end. The dropper for the dry will be somewhere between 1 and 1 1/2' down the tippet. If I decide to switch to dry only, I can just nip the flies off and stick the dry on the end (leaving the dropper with nothing attached makes no odds for presentation and I can switch back again) - but if I'd tied the nymph tippet to the hook of the dry, I'd only a 1 - 1 1/2' of tippet. This would be too short - I want a minimum of 3' tippet between the end of the leader and the dry.
But the uni knot sounds useful - must learn it/give it a go!
Yes, that's what i thought you meant :)
This is really only an issue if you are chopping and changing...but is it not difficult to tie the dry back on to the shortened dropper if you want to revert to NZ nymph and dry combo? I do tend to use quite short droppers, so maybe this isn't an issue if you are using a long dropper to start with.
Like I said, I do think the "off the" bend style can lead to missed takes, so I can understand why you favour the "proper loch style dropper". There is another way that I have tried occasionally. It is known as "two in the eye" (another NZ idea) and just as it sounds both lengths of mono are tied to the eye of the dry. I'm not sure that there are any real advantages to that however :?
Alex
You're right - it is a pain if you're chopping and changing and even with a longer dropper (which tends to increase the chances of tangles) you're eventually going to have to stick an entirely new dropper on.
The other alternative would be a micro ring with both the dropper and tippet attached - when the dropper gets too small, just tie on a new one. I used to do this - and I'm not really sure why I stopped as I never had a problem with it.
Quote from: past caring on August 17, 2015, 09:40:29 PM
The other alternative would be a micro ring with both the dropper and tippet attached - when the dropper gets too small, just tie on a new one. I used to do this - and I'm not really sure why I stopped as I never had a problem with it.
I sometimes do that. It works perfectly well and is just as reliable as a water knot.
QuoteI used to do this - and I'm not really sure why I stopped as I never had a problem with it.
:lol:
I have to re-learn stuff all the time because I forget.
The micro ring isn't a bad idea. I might try that myself when using fair sized dries like size 12 elk hair caddis or the like - if I remember :)
Alex
Quote from: haresear on August 17, 2015, 09:57:12 PM
The micro ring isn't a bad idea.
Only issue is dropping them. It's very fiddly. :D
Quote from: admin on August 17, 2015, 09:58:26 PM
Only issue is dropping them. It's very fiddly. :D
What I do (still use them for a three fly cast on lochs) is thread a bunch onto a safety pin that sits in my fly box. Thread tippet through ring and then open the safety pin - it works!