I'm not an experienced river fisher but have done a bit. I was wondering if folk would care to outline some techniques for river fishing which can be good. I'm not to familiar with what the terminology actually means.
I think up and across and down and across are probably kind of self explanatory but when does up and across become upstream nymphing or similarly when does down and across become down stream nymphing if there is such a term, I'd have thought down and across was more akin to Salmon fishing if I have guessed at the presentation method correctly but am completely baffled at the terminology of river fishing ?
I once fished the river Nevis and found a particulary effective technique being to cast into the fast water at the head of the pool with a small scud or goldhead GRHE on a floating line and let the current do the work blasting the fly downstream and eventually lifting it through the water as the line got swept round by the current then retrieving when the fly had almost done a 180 Degree journey. Is this the dark art of upstream nymphing ?
Let me first say , before too many people get on my case that, I normally fish upstream dry, and there will be much better nymphers on here, this is just my take on it to open more discussion.
To break it down simply; across and down the fly and leader is down stream of the tip of the fly line. Up stream the nymph should be kept ahead of the fly line by gathering in slack and raising the rod tip as the fly comes back towards you.
On the occasions i do go across and down it tends to be exploring the places i think there should be fish, usually with a gold head or weighted nymph to get it down, and then manage the line to let the current to get the swing, and keep tight with the nymph for the 'feel' of the take. Mending some slack in at the begining to increase depth, or using the swing of the completed drift to raise the nymph.
The take is usually felt as a tug rather than seen.
I find it a bit random and a desperate option.( but that's probably my lack of ability).
Up stream tends to be cast as much to the direction up stream as i can manage to control the drift back.
The fish are targeted ( as in I have seen the evidence of a fish there) and the best way of describing the the action of the nymph is a A Dead Drift, with no drag (much like with a dry fly).
The skill comes in from keeping a good control on the line, with minimum slack, so that when the fly reaches the fish you can either lift it a touch to induce the take, or at least ( and most often) just get a drift that works naturally with the stream, like a dislodged insect helpless in the current.
Keeping control of the line also helps see the take clearly on the leader and to react immediately.
It's no dark art and not half as hard as it sounds when put into practice. The take is usually seen by a little V shaped wake on the leader, which really gets the pulse racing. Sometimes however the take is seen with the trout bulging or turning just under the surface, Theres no mistaking it unless you snag the bottom or some debris.
I just tend to stick to the same pattern and size PTN's for this, not out of laziness, but because instead of dry fly fishing in two dimensions, you are fishing at depth too and the consistency of fly helps you the angler to keep it simple and learn to get the line management and control the depth for this technique. It's a confidence thing.... once you have seen that line zipping away with a few takes you will soon master it.
Hope that helps.( and I haven't upset any downstream nymphers).
The aero-dynamics of the bumble bee are due to the minute hairs on the edge of the wings.
I am damn sure you can catch as many fish if not more, on the downstream dangle. But the buzz of seeing that leader zipping the surface is for us pseuds as satisfying as seeing a dry fly being taken.
The secret if there is one is to be in control. Only fish as far forward as you can see the take on the leader. In glassy water thats quite a distance, but in broken water you need to be much closer.... however in broken water you can afford to get much closer to your quarry as they have less chance of seeing or hearing you.
And when you are fishing that nymph upstream, lifting the rod as it comes back to yo and watching the well greased end of your line for the slightest of hesitations that signals the gentle take of a monstrous but infinitely wise fish....you never then let the thing drift past you whilst you are thinking about where to chuck it next and then find a fish attached to the end when you lift to cast.
Tim
The key to successful fly fishing is flexibility. Adapt to suit the conditions. All the anglers I know who actually catch fish on a regular basis have this approach. You can often read about it in reports on the forum.
Donald, PM me and I'll send you a DVD that covers what you are asking about and will help to answer your questions.
Donald, as a relatively inexperienced river angler you'll probably find down and across the easier method to get to grips with., especially in a downstream wind.
I would suggest though that you do attempt the upstream method for a short time at least each day, if for no other reason than it is just to get to grips with retrieving line and managing the loose line.
It is hard work, but in my experience is more rewarding in terms of catching the better fish. That's not to say I never fish down and across or that downstream doesn't catch good fish, just that mostly upstream works better for me.
Alex
First thing - ignore the bullshit of whether it is called up and across, down and across, upstream nymphing whatever. The thought never cross my mind, I see trout, I put myself in the best place to make the cast, and I make the cast in such a manner to put the flies in front of it. That's all there is to it. The only other consideration is what fly to give it, usually dependent on where in the water column it is or after a quick test with a dry to see if it will rise. Yes I do have the advantage of sight fishing :lol:
I almost always fish upstream, mainly because it's easier to present naturally (not needed all the time but fish spook a surprising amount when a nymph swings infront of them here) and the fish can't see you. The only time I fish downstream is the situation when I physically cannot get below the fish due to conditions or it seeing me. This weekend I fished down to a fish cause the wind was so strong I couldn't actually cast upstream.
Pseuds corner
Bit strong Scotty saying that defining the difference is bullshit. Down or Up rely on different types of control, differing takes, and to an extent different types of flies to do the job efficiently.
They are all extra skill sets in our arsenal to ( as Fred puts it), 'give us flexibility to deal with the different circumstances'. Each are worth learning well. And as haresear says worth a concerted effort to master as I believe it is really valuable as a river fisherman to learn the skills of line control needed with up stream, as it also crosses over to, and magnifies the skills needed for good up stream dry fly presentation and line management.
Especially where you are in NZ the value of honing the skills of the drag free drift with a nymph should be most valuable.
Learning that that the induced take, as an extra trick up the sleeve, is not just a dark art for southern Nancie's like Oliver kite and Sawyer, its just another skill set that most of us can easily master to some degree with a little practice, and also gives us more options when the fish just wont bite at the dry or the 'dead' drifted nymph. ( It's certainly helped me with the Mad Matuara Rise).
Like wise learning the downstream mends and controls help no end when you find yourself in the pitch dark feeling the line for Sea Trout.
Saying the definition of the two skills is bullshit just doesn't ring true to this old pseudo intellectual. Viva la difference' I say.
Sorry Pom, didn't mean to sound like I was having a go or explicitly discrediting the methods. I don't think I put what I mean across very well. What I was meaning was for Don looking to understand it, there's not too much point in fretting about exactly how you are 'supposed' to approach each method. Those are the kind of stringent rules that do nothing for anyone.
To my eyes fishing is a rounded set of "do what you can to get the fish". I never ever think, ok today I am going with an upstream nymphing approach or it's time to fish down and across. I just do it. The names of and the "proper ways to do the method" are all semantics to me, much like all the names of different casts. I know them, can list them and tell you when they are meant to be used but frankly I don't care what they are when I'm fishing - I just use them.
Adaptability is key like you mention. Adapt your skill set or knowledge bank.
One further - line control to me isn't a matter of you do this up and you do this down. Line control is line control. You do what you need to based on what you want and what your eyes are telling you is happening. Is is a feedback and response system - up or down is neither here nor there IMO.
I should qualify all this by stating I am ignorant and basing it on my experiences (I can't argue with my own experience, it's working pretty well for me thus far!). Take what you will, criticise what you will. I started without a clue with all this clear water and worked through it learning as I go. I didn't follow any books or particular approaches, I got out there and did it and learned - becoming adaptable as I had no rules or prescription. All I know is this works for me - I don't have rules when fishing; whether that is direction, fly choice, line control etc. Fishing isn't an exact science.
*Bit of a rant :shock:
PS - don't you find most fish in the mataura a bit small? :lol: I'll need to check out the autumn hatches actually but it's so hard not to head straight for the remote mountains. By far my favourite fishing environment of any I have witnessed so far. Any tips as to when the hatches should kick off? I've heard they are best once it gets a bit colder?
Whilst us southerners are softies...proper chalkstreams (not middle Test stockie bashing beats) are an amazing place to learn how fish react to your flies and presentation because you don't have to guess at the reaction: you can see it. A visual lesson in the form of a feeding fish consistently rejecting your offerings hits home a lot faster than blanks that an arrogant bastard like me would otherwise put down to 'no fish in the river' or 'not feeding today'. You also have the huge advantage of being able to see the take - which is often no more than a twitch of the head or a brief white flash as the mouth opens. You don't have to travel to the other side of the world to catch fish in clear streams!
Tim
Quote from: Tim on April 12, 2011, 11:44:07 AM
Whilst us southerners are softies...proper chalkstreams (not middle Test stockie bashing beats) are an amazing place to learn how fish react to your flies and presentation because you don't have to guess at the reaction: you can see it. A visual lesson in the form of a feeding fish consistently rejecting your offerings hits home a lot faster than blanks that an arrogant bastard like me would otherwise put down to 'no fish in the river' or 'not feeding today'. You also have the huge advantage of being able to see the take - which is often no more than a twitch of the head or a brief white flash as the mouth opens. You don't have to travel to the other side of the world to catch fish in clear streams!
Tim
It is amazing just how much you learn indeed - by far the quickest learning process when you get that realtime feedback.
And no you don't have to go to the other side of the world to catch fish in clear water, but I'm bloody glad I did :D :8)
Thanks for replies, definately stuff to consider. Will send p.m. tonight Fred.
Does anyone use this method I was using where you cast the flees into the fast water right at the head of the pool which drives them down to the fish ? It's actually very effective on wee streams anyway.
Oh aye, meant to ask when fishing the duo, do folk reckon NZ style is best or just a dry fly on a dopper above the nymph on the point ?
Quote from: guest on April 12, 2011, 05:05:03 PM
Oh aye, meant to ask when fishing the duo, do folk reckon NZ style is best or just a dry fly on a dopper above the nymph on the point ?
Just depends, if im fishing two nymphs I just tie my dropper like a normal dropper but if im fishing a dry above the nymph I usually tie the nymph on nz, especially when using paras or klinks as it helps them sit almost perfect on the water
Quoteall for a natural drift with a dry, appears to be the bit most struggle with, or put another way, the bit that makes the biggest difference to fish, not sure if this important for nymphing?
Usually it is, Alan, but sometimes a fish will chase a dragging nymph. I like to avoid drag as far as I can and that is one reason I usually use a yarn indicator when nymphing. It shows what sort of drift I'm getting.
As for dropper V NZ style, Allan Liddle swears by the dropper, while I like the adaptability of being able to change nymphs or dries quite easily when using the NZ style. I use a uni knot, which means I can open the loop up and slip the nymph and it's nylon off the dry if that makes sense?
Alex
Alan,
Drag certainly can make a difference as Alex says, however it's worth pointing out that dead drift is only one of the possible approaches. It's worthwhile sometimes twitching the nymph or making the nymph move in active fashion; have you heard of two related techniques called the "induced take" (popularised by Sawyer) and the "Leisenring lift"?
Other exceptions to to the dead drift norm - particularly when fishing dead upstream is to have the nymph travelling back very slightly faster than the current - that keeps quite a tight line but it is a form of drag however it helps a lot in bite detection. You do this partly by raising the rod tip as the fly comes towards you. This is one time when I miss the very long rod I was using in 2008/2009 as that allowed a longer downstream drift.
I use both the NZ style and dropper. Which one I choose depends on my initial setup on the day. If I start off with two flies - especially if I'm fishing a dry fly on the tail and a nymph on the bob then it'll be the dropper method.
Don Using the NZ dropper over here is described best ( in my opinion) by Paul G who goes on that other forum. He is also really accomplished at using it, when you see him in action.
He does a DVD on fishing the Duo method as he calls it and has really thought it out to the Nth degree, Looking at position in currents, preventing slack in the trailing nymph etc> His full name is Paul Gaskell of the Wild trout trust, I am pretty sure you can get the DVD through them, or get his number to order it direct.
Another way of doing the new zealand dropper is to use a very heavy nymph, and tie an un weighted smaller nymph to the bend, this gets your chosen nymph down into a zone normally too deep or turbulent for it to get down to. All worth learning, as, as most people posting here do seem to agree, its adaptability on the rivers thats the key.
Scotty I understand what you saying , but surely you can see a difference between effectively gathering in slack and preventing that line from gathering under the rod tip, which happens with up stream fishing.... whether thats fishing the dry or nymph. And of feeding out slack, and mending line out to get an effective drift and to keep in contact with a fly ( and the take) when working across and down.
Sure 'line control is line control' as you say, but these are very different and contrasting skill sets, And for someone like Don worth defining, practicing and considering the implications of. ( and yes 2-4lb fish on the Mataura are a bit small for some, but the density means you can be fishing and casting to fish frequently, rather than walking miles and concentrated spotting involved with some of the bigger fish waters around that part of the South island.
I long ago learnt to face the fact that size just cant be everything for some of us).
Tim , My comments on southern softies i hope you realise where tongue in cheek, As someone fishing in a brook Northants is hardly qualifies as Northern. For me Frank Sawyer is God. I was patronising my own position, not trying to offend a chalkstream angler.
It doesn't need to be in any way complicated and a lot of time can be wasted trying to figure it out. For me the best method is a compromise. Unless fishing specifically with dries or emerger patterns I invariably cast across and SLIGHTLY upstream then allow the flies to drift past and round. Keep a bow in the line and you can detect any change in the lines pasage that might be a fish. The only other thing you may need to do is perform a slight upstream mend to prevent the line bellying and pulling the flies faster than the current.Casting down and across to rising fish will also prove productive, as the flies come round over the riser it will on most occasions be the top or middle fly that is taken and as the fish drops back into it's station it will on most occassions hook itself. Try it, it works!
Greenwell
w p - my tongue is permenantly in my cheek so no worries there. Is your brook the Willow Brook? Fished in in late Sept a couple of years ago. Very wild fish and an unhelpful downstream gale, but had a couple of cracking chub on goldhead grhe.
Tim
Yep Tim its the Willowbrook. One of its main source waters comes out of the sewage works in Corby, which is our tenuous Scottish connection. ( a river made from the waste product's of Ex Glaswegian steel workers)
That downstream 'breeze' has been with us since opening day. Habitat improvements (especially fry/juvenile habitat) seems to be paying off. All members braving the conditions are finding loads of 'bandies' and plump little 9 inchers throughout the system this year, ready to grow on.
Reduced stocking and improved water quality has gone some way to facilitate this.With luck we can convince the AGM to drop stocking completely in the near future, but its a leap of faith for many of the paying membership.
I have had a 4lb chub allready this year, delicately sipping down a size 18 emerger, such fun on a 0 wieght. Once it made it down stream of me it was like dragging a waterlogged, comatosed tesco bag to the landing net.
And Don just to show this old pseud ain't no purist. Tonight i had 4 trout all on a Gold head dropped in across and down, with the cold, howling wind and the low water there was little choice, and saved a blank...... I dint feel even slightly guilty or tainted! I'd love to be targeting rising fish up stream... but if they ain't available you just have to adapt.
Thanks for all the advice. I was able to put much of it to use and didn't have any great difficulty presenting the fly upstream and getting a drag free drift. Much of the stuff I was doing, I had been doing on previous river trips but just didn't realise I had been doing it if you know what I mean. I'd never fished NZ style before and found it gave me much better presentation than when fishing the dry fly on a dropper which was something I tried later in the day. Now, I just need to find a river with big fish on it as I could get quite into this river fishing thing :) !