Up and Across / Down and Across

[Black-Don]

I'm not an experienced river fisher but have done a bit. I was wondering if folk would care to outline some techniques for river fishing which can be good. I'm not to familiar with what the terminology actually means.

I think up and across and down and across are probably kind of self explanatory but when does up and across become upstream nymphing or similarly when does down and across become down stream nymphing if there is such a term, I'd have thought down and across was more akin to Salmon fishing if I have guessed at the presentation method correctly but am completely baffled at the terminology of river fishing ?

I once fished the river Nevis and found a particulary effective technique being to cast into the fast water at the head of the pool with a small scud or goldhead GRHE on a floating line and let the current do the work blasting the fly downstream and eventually lifting it through the water as the line got swept round by the current then retrieving when the fly had almost done a 180 Degree journey. Is this the dark art of upstream nymphing ?

[whinging pom]

Let me first say , before too many people get on my case that, I normally fish upstream dry, and there will be much better nymphers on here, this is just my take on it to open more discussion.

To break it down simply; across and down the fly and leader is down stream of the tip of the fly line. Up stream the nymph should be kept ahead of the fly line by gathering in slack and raising the rod tip as the fly comes back towards you.

On the occasions i do go across and down it tends to be exploring the places i think there should be fish, usually with a gold head or weighted nymph to get it down, and then manage the line to let the current to get the swing, and keep tight with the nymph for the 'feel' of the take.  Mending some slack in at the begining to increase depth, or using the swing of the completed drift to raise the nymph.
The take is usually felt as a tug rather than seen.
I find it a bit random and a desperate option.( but that's probably my lack of ability).

Up stream tends to be cast as much to the direction up stream as i can manage to control the drift back.
The fish are targeted ( as in I have seen the evidence of a fish there) and the best way of describing the the action of the nymph is a A Dead Drift, with no drag (much like with a dry fly).
The skill comes in from keeping a good control on the line, with minimum slack, so that when the fly reaches the fish you can either lift it a touch to induce the take, or at least ( and most often) just get a drift that works naturally with the stream, like a dislodged insect helpless in the current.
Keeping control of the line also helps see the take clearly on the leader and to react immediately.

It's no dark art and not half as hard as it sounds when put into practice. The take is usually seen by a little V shaped wake on the leader, which really gets the pulse racing. Sometimes however the take is seen with the trout bulging or turning just under the surface, Theres no mistaking it unless you snag the bottom or some debris.

I just tend to stick to the same pattern and size PTN's for this, not out of laziness, but because instead of dry fly fishing in two dimensions, you are fishing at depth too and  the consistency of fly helps you the angler to keep it simple and  learn to get the line management and  control the depth for this technique. It's a confidence thing.... once you have seen that line zipping away with a few takes you will soon master it.

Hope that helps.( and I haven't upset any downstream nymphers).

[whinging pom]

The aero-dynamics of the bumble bee are due to the minute hairs on the edge of the wings.

I am damn sure you can catch as many fish if not more, on the downstream dangle. But the buzz of seeing that leader zipping the surface is for us pseuds as satisfying as seeing a dry fly being taken.
The secret if there is one is to be in control. Only fish as far forward as you can see the take on the leader. In glassy water thats quite  a distance, but in broken water you need to be much closer.... however in broken water you can afford to get much closer to your quarry as they have less chance of seeing or hearing  you.

[Tim]

And when you are fishing that nymph upstream, lifting the rod as it comes back to yo and watching the well greased end of your line for the slightest of hesitations that signals the gentle take of a monstrous but infinitely wise fish....you never then let the thing drift past you whilst you are thinking about where to chuck it next and then find a fish attached to the end when you lift to cast.

Tim

[Wildfisher]

The key to successful fly fishing is flexibility. Adapt  to suit the conditions. All the anglers I know who actually  catch fish on a regular basis have this approach. You can often read about it in reports on the forum.

Donald, PM me and I'll send you a DVD that covers what you are asking  about  and will help to answer your questions.

[haresear]

Donald, as a relatively inexperienced river angler you'll probably find down and across the easier method to get to grips with., especially in a downstream wind.

I would suggest though that you do attempt the upstream method for a short time at least each day, if for no other reason than it is just to get to grips with retrieving line and managing the loose line.

It is hard work, but in my experience is more rewarding in terms of catching the better fish. That's not to say I never fish down and across or that downstream doesn't catch good fish, just that mostly upstream works better for me.

Alex

[scotty9]

First thing - ignore the bullshit of whether it is called up and across, down and across, upstream nymphing whatever. The thought never cross my mind, I see trout, I put myself in the best place to make the cast, and I make the cast in such a manner to put the flies in front of it. That's all there is to it. The only other consideration is what fly to give it, usually dependent on where in the water column it is or after a quick test with a dry to see if it will rise. Yes I do have the advantage of sight fishing  :lol:

I almost always fish upstream, mainly because it's easier to present naturally (not needed all the time but fish spook a surprising amount when a nymph swings infront of them here) and the fish can't see you. The only time I fish downstream is the situation when I physically cannot get below the fish due to conditions or it seeing me. This weekend I fished down to a fish cause the wind was so strong I couldn't actually cast upstream.

[whinging pom]

Pseuds corner

Bit strong Scotty saying that defining the difference is bullshit. Down or Up rely on different types of control, differing takes, and to an extent different types of flies to do the job efficiently.
They are all extra skill sets in our arsenal to ( as Fred puts it), 'give us flexibility to deal with the different circumstances'. Each are worth learning well. And as haresear says worth a concerted effort to master as I believe it is really valuable as a river fisherman to learn the skills of line control needed with up stream, as it also crosses over to, and magnifies the skills needed for good up stream dry fly presentation and line management.

Especially where you are in NZ the value of honing the skills of the drag free drift with a nymph should be  most valuable.
Learning that that the induced take, as an extra trick up the sleeve, is not just a dark art for southern Nancie's like Oliver kite and Sawyer, its just another skill set that most of us can easily master to some degree with a little practice, and also gives us more options when the fish just wont bite at the dry or the 'dead' drifted nymph. ( It's certainly helped me with the Mad Matuara Rise).

Like wise learning the downstream mends and controls help no end  when you find yourself in the pitch dark feeling the line for Sea Trout.

Saying the definition of the two skills is bullshit just doesn't ring true to this old pseudo intellectual. Viva la difference' I say.

[scotty9]

Sorry Pom, didn't mean to sound like I was having a go or explicitly discrediting the methods. I don't think I put what I mean across very well. What I was meaning was for Don looking to understand it, there's not too much point in fretting about exactly how you are 'supposed' to approach each method. Those are the kind of stringent rules that do nothing for anyone.

To my eyes fishing is a rounded set of "do what you can to get the fish". I never ever think, ok today I am going with an upstream nymphing approach or it's time to fish down and across. I just do it. The names of and the "proper ways to do the method" are all semantics to me, much like all the names of different casts. I know them, can list them and tell you when they are meant to be used but frankly I don't care what they are when I'm fishing - I just use them.

Adaptability is key like you mention. Adapt your skill set or knowledge bank.

One further - line control to me isn't a matter of you do this up and you do this down. Line control is line control. You do what you need to based on what you want and what your eyes are telling you is happening. Is is a feedback and response system - up or down is neither here nor there IMO.

I should qualify all this by stating I am ignorant and basing it on my experiences (I can't argue with my own experience, it's working pretty well for me thus far!). Take what you will, criticise what you will. I started without a clue with all this clear water and worked through it learning as I go. I didn't follow any books or particular approaches, I got out there and did it and learned - becoming adaptable as I had no rules or prescription. All I know is this works for me - I don't have rules when fishing; whether that is direction, fly choice, line control etc. Fishing isn't an exact science.

*Bit of a rant  :shock:

PS - don't you find most fish in the mataura a bit small?  :lol: I'll need to check out the autumn hatches actually but it's so hard not to head straight for the remote mountains. By far my favourite fishing environment of any I have witnessed so far. Any tips as to when the hatches should kick off? I've heard they are best once it gets a bit colder?

[Tim]

Whilst us southerners are softies...proper chalkstreams (not middle Test stockie bashing beats) are an amazing place to learn how fish react to your flies and presentation because you don't have to guess at the reaction: you can see it. A visual lesson in the form of a feeding fish consistently rejecting your offerings hits home a lot faster than blanks that an arrogant bastard like me would otherwise put down to 'no fish in the river' or 'not feeding today'. You also have the huge advantage of being able to see the take - which is often no more than a twitch of the head or a brief white flash as the mouth opens. You don't have to travel to the other side of the world to catch fish in clear streams!

Tim