Up and Across / Down and Across

[scotty9]

Whilst us southerners are softies...proper chalkstreams (not middle Test stockie bashing beats) are an amazing place to learn how fish react to your flies and presentation because you don't have to guess at the reaction: you can see it. A visual lesson in the form of a feeding fish consistently rejecting your offerings hits home a lot faster than blanks that an arrogant bastard like me would otherwise put down to 'no fish in the river' or 'not feeding today'. You also have the huge advantage of being able to see the take - which is often no more than a twitch of the head or a brief white flash as the mouth opens. You don't have to travel to the other side of the world to catch fish in clear streams!

Tim

It is amazing just how much you learn indeed - by far the quickest learning process when you get that realtime feedback.

And no you don't have to go to the other side of the world to catch fish in clear water, but I'm bloody glad I did  :

[Black-Don]

Thanks for replies, definately stuff to consider. Will send p.m. tonight Fred.

Does anyone use this method I was using where you cast the flees into the fast water right at the head of the pool which drives them down to the fish ? It's actually very effective on wee streams anyway.

Oh aye, meant to ask when fishing the duo, do folk reckon NZ style is best or just a dry fly on a dopper above the nymph on the point ?

[alba]

Oh aye, meant to ask when fishing the duo, do folk reckon NZ style is best or just a dry fly on a dopper above the nymph on the point ?

Just depends, if im fishing two nymphs I just tie my dropper like a normal dropper but if im fishing a dry above the nymph I usually tie the nymph on nz, especially when using paras or klinks as it helps them sit almost perfect on the water

[haresear]

all for a natural drift with a dry, appears to be the bit most struggle with, or put another way, the bit that makes the biggest difference to fish, not sure if this important for nymphing?

Usually it is, Alan, but sometimes a fish will chase a dragging nymph. I like to avoid drag as far as I can and that is one reason I usually use a yarn indicator when nymphing. It shows what sort of drift I'm getting.


As for dropper V NZ style, Allan Liddle swears by the dropper, while I like the adaptability of being able to change nymphs or dries quite easily when using the NZ style. I use a uni knot, which means I can open the loop up and slip the nymph and it's nylon off the dry if that makes sense?

Alex

[Malcolm]

Alan,

Drag certainly can make a difference as Alex says, however it's worth pointing out that dead drift is only one of the possible approaches. It's worthwhile sometimes twitching the nymph or making the nymph move in active fashion; have you heard of two related techniques called the "induced take" (popularised by Sawyer) and the "Leisenring lift"?

Other exceptions to to the dead drift norm - particularly when fishing dead upstream is to have the nymph travelling back very slightly faster than the current - that keeps quite a tight line but it is a form of drag however it helps a lot in bite detection. You do this partly by raising the rod tip as the fly comes towards you. This is one time when I miss the very long rod I was using in 2008/2009 as that allowed a longer downstream drift.

I use both the NZ style and dropper. Which one I choose depends on my initial setup on the day. If I start off with two flies - especially if I'm fishing a dry fly on the tail and a nymph on the bob then it'll be the dropper method.

[whinging pom]

Don  Using the NZ dropper over here is described best ( in my opinion) by Paul G who goes on that other forum.  He is also really accomplished at using it, when you see him in action.
He does a DVD on fishing the Duo method as he calls it and has really thought it out to the Nth degree, Looking at position in currents, preventing slack in the trailing nymph etc> His full name is Paul Gaskell of the Wild trout trust, I am pretty sure you can get the DVD through them, or get his number to order it direct.

Another way of doing the new zealand dropper is to use a very heavy nymph, and tie an un weighted smaller nymph to the bend, this gets your chosen nymph down into a zone normally too deep or turbulent for it to get down to. All worth learning, as, as most people posting here do seem to agree, its adaptability on the rivers thats the key.

Scotty I understand what you saying , but surely you can see a difference between effectively gathering in slack and preventing that line from gathering under the rod tip, which happens with up stream fishing.... whether thats fishing the dry or nymph.  And of feeding out slack, and mending line out to get an effective drift and to keep in contact with a fly ( and the take) when working across and down.
Sure 'line control is line control' as you say, but these are very different and contrasting skill sets, And for someone like Don worth defining, practicing and considering the implications of. ( and yes 2-4lb fish on the Mataura are a bit small for some, but the density means you can be fishing and casting to fish frequently, rather than walking miles and concentrated spotting involved with some of the bigger fish waters around that part of the South island.
I long ago learnt to face the fact that size just cant be everything for some of us).

Tim , My comments on southern softies i hope you realise where tongue in cheek, As someone fishing in a brook Northants is hardly qualifies as Northern. For me Frank Sawyer is God. I was patronising my own position, not trying to offend a chalkstream angler.

[greenwell]

It doesn't need to be in any way complicated and a lot of time can be wasted trying to figure it out. For me the best method is a compromise. Unless fishing specifically with dries or emerger patterns I invariably cast across and SLIGHTLY upstream then allow the flies to drift past and round. Keep a bow in the line and you can detect any change in the lines pasage that might be a fish. The only other thing you may need to do is perform a slight upstream mend to prevent the line bellying and pulling the flies faster than the current.Casting down and across to rising fish will also prove productive, as the flies come round over the riser it will on most occasions be the top or middle fly that is taken and as the fish drops back into it's station it will on most occassions hook itself.  Try it, it works!

   Greenwell

[Tim]

w p - my tongue is permenantly in my cheek so no worries there. Is your brook the Willow Brook? Fished in in late Sept a couple of years ago. Very wild fish and an unhelpful downstream gale, but had a couple of cracking chub on goldhead grhe.

Tim

[whinging pom]

Yep Tim its the Willowbrook. One of its main source waters comes out of the sewage works in Corby, which is our tenuous Scottish connection. ( a river made from the waste product's of Ex Glaswegian steel workers)
That downstream 'breeze' has been with us since opening day. Habitat improvements (especially fry/juvenile habitat) seems to be paying off. All members braving the conditions are finding loads of 'bandies' and plump little 9 inchers throughout the system this year, ready to grow on.
Reduced stocking and improved water quality has gone some way to facilitate this.With luck we can convince the AGM to drop stocking completely in the near future, but its a leap of faith for many of the paying membership.

I have had a 4lb chub allready this year, delicately sipping down a size 18 emerger, such fun on a 0 wieght. Once it made it down stream of me it was like dragging a waterlogged, comatosed tesco bag to the landing net.

And Don just to show this old pseud ain't no purist. Tonight i had 4 trout all on a Gold head dropped in across and down, with the cold, howling wind and the low water there was little choice, and saved a blank...... I dint feel even slightly guilty or tainted! I'd love to be targeting rising fish up stream... but if they ain't available you just have to adapt.

[Black-Don]

Thanks for all the advice. I was able to put much of it to use and didn't have any great difficulty presenting the fly upstream and getting a drag free drift. Much of the stuff I was doing, I had been doing on previous river trips but just didn't realise I had been doing it if you know what I mean. I'd never fished NZ style before and found it gave me much better presentation than when fishing the dry fly on a dropper which was something I tried later in the day. Now, I just need to find a river with big fish on it as I could get quite into this river fishing thing   !