Do some casting Instructors make it Difficult for Beginners to understand what they mean by the Terminology they use?
What do you think?
Brian
There was a big discussion about this very thing here Brian.
http://www.wildfisher.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=13009.0
Yep read through it. Pretty much what I expected to see.
Some have the ability to keep it simple,others veer of the easy road and take the hard road. :(
Brian
Some make it easy/some make it difficult - it aint ever going to change. Different personalities, different understandings/interpretations by the instructors themselves and no perfectly defined set of descriptions that are agreed by all to be used will make sure it stays that way.
Have a read on sexyloops where you have members of the FFF board of governors, definition committee members and numerous well respected instructors having real debate on proper terms for things. That just outlines more the variation in approaches...
Some instructors are going to be good, some are going to be shit - same with everything people do. No point in painting a pretty picture over that.
Not quite true Scott. GAIA has a Glossary of terms and I can't really see any difficult terminology on it.
I know you are NZ but if you access the GAIA website you can read it. You may need log on details.
Also imo Sexyloops makes it difficult just for the sake of it. A lot of the time it is Instructor against Instructor
making up pseudo names for casts to enhance their selves abit
Regards
Brian
Yeah I have the glossary of terms but the terms themselves don't really offer anything to a learner other than a name for something the instructor is going to try and explain.
I guess what I'm getting at is that it's too easy to get caught up in all the jargon, a beginner doesn't need to know what X, Y and Z are actually called. They need to know how to do something, then assuming they want to get somewhere, understand why they are doing that and then if they really want to delve into it they can get their head around all the jargon. Just my opinion of course! I think you could quite comfortably get a beginner up and casting well without using any of the casting specific terms listed.
Very well put Scott.
What I mean about our glossary of terms Scott, there are no complex terms used.
Hope you are enjoying your stay in NZ.
Are you going to take the APGAI Assessment when you return?
Best Regards.
Brian
Yep, got you now!
Not sure if I will do it immediately, at the moment I am really content - I don't feel the need to prove anything right now (I know my own capabilities). I'm just really enjoying fishing a lot, casting for fun, helping people where I can of course but it hasn't been remotely commercially driven. I'll definitely do it in the near future, I'm just not sure exactly when.
Really enjoying the stay thanks, a lot of fun! Just trying to make the most of every opportunity I get. Hope things are good for you also!
Quote from: scotty9 on February 20, 2011, 10:46:00 AM
a beginner doesn't need to know what X, Y and Z are actually called. They need to know how to do something, then assuming they want to get somewhere, understand why they are doing that and then if they really want to delve into it they can get their head around all the jargon. Just my opinion of course!
I'll second that! :D
I've been fishing for a very long time now- I'm more than happy with my casting- more than happy with the amount of fish I catch.
I have no idea what a tailing loop is and couldn't care either!
Not meant to be a dig at instructors, it's just I feel it's the last thing the beginner should be getting bogged down with. Get your flees (and eyes) on the water- not up in the air doing acrobatics.
IMHO terminology need be no more jargony than 9 o'clock /1 o'clock to start catching fish which is what I thought fishing was about :).
Hi BP. Don't apologise for having a dig at Instructors,why should you?
I think you have a valid point in "doing acrobatics" .
Most of these fancy movements of the rod are "look at me casts" and have no real value to fishing
I would pose a question to Instructors " Have you ever had someone phone you up or book a lesson to learn the Voodoo cast"?
I will be surprised if they have.
Brian
I have been on for a while now,lurking in the background,learning.
I followed your link. It just shows that you CAN keep it easy.
The Instructor I know(who?) that wanted to learn the Voodoo cast never phoned or booked a lesson. :?
I notice your not so camera shy on here :P
I sometimes come on here for peace and quiet
Brian
A voodoo cast actually does have one incredibly useful purpose....
You know when your fishing and someone decides they're going to come over and give you a whole host of "advice" on what you are doing? (This hasn't actually happened for a while but still valid - maybe its a UK thing!) Instead of listening to their nonsense a quick voodoo usually is able to shut them up and get them on their way :lol: :lol: I remember having a talk with Alan about this - we decided this is huge advantage of said cast :lol:
It does seem with the mixture of abilities drawn to these forums, that the descriptions when aimed at the beginners question are clear, then they are also of value to most of us of all abilities.
However we men are competitive and territorial, and once a few casting instructors start to post. Ego kicks in, the jargon gets complex and semantics and one-up man ship takes over. (not so evident on this forum though I must add).
Sadly us duffers get left behind and feel further removed from an understanding that is probably just out of our reach... but should really be well within our grasp.
In my own fields of knowledge like photography I see the the same thing... There is a query and you try to explain on a basic level giving just the necessary to nudge the poster comfortably on a level. Then some ego comes through to show how much they know and complicate the instruction. Competing with my knowledge or my experience, rather than considering the needs of the questioner.
At this point you know the poor old posters eyes have just glazed over, and is further from understanding than they were when they asked.
It is a damn shame that casting and fly fishing have developed isolated in many different places, with differing uses of language, before the global village and instantly shared ideas. But that's the way it is, One mans lunge is another mans thrust and i don't see one governing body pulling it all together now sadly and unifying these terms and descriptions.
So it is down to the instructors... esp on these forums, to be responsible for pitching it at a level that all people will understand and stop trying to outdo each other in a public.
To show each other, and the learners some respect, or they will turn simple questions about say, using wrist action, into some dark complex art. And its the responsibility of other instructors to succumb the temptation to fan they're egos, with elevated debate, when, if they stopped for a second they would realise they are leaving the very people they are supposed to help behind and further confused.
One of the first 'Truths' about photography I always started with to my beginers was that.' None of this is beyond you, Its not high science.. I have never met a really intelligent photographer, And i have met plenty of really thick ones'.
with all due respect, I suspect the same is true of theoretical fly casting and its instructors.
WP. Your post is a minefield of Truths. There is no way that anyone can read it and not see a bit of themselves. Thankyou.
I am a believer that an ego,like a balloon is easy deflated. I hope I have managed to keep one at bay.
We in Gaia have our own website/Forum from now on any "complex" questions I have will be posted there.
We are,after all still learning.I have never met a person yet who knows it all(I have met a few that thought they did).
The thing about the Voodoo cast, although I think you jest Scott. The guy may have been coming over to ask/give you a piece of valuable advise. You never know, but if you rush to judgement you never will.
Best Regards.
I only got interested in casting as such in late 2009. Until that point it was simply a case of of knowing immediately what space there was to cast and then forming a cast to fit the space available. The many of us who fish overgrown rivers know exactly what I mean - you don't see insurmountable problems - you see space and that is the space you use.
You don't even think about it much, you just do it.
Without knowing it you may be:
1) leaving a long lead
2) forming a very narrow Vloop
3) Performing an horizontal, under tip, low spey cast
4) performing a right to left loop correction AKA a side swipe (thanks Alan!)
5) thrusting
6) introducing slack line in the form of a corkscrew or mend
all the time we have developed touch and feel and lots of subtle nuances in order to make a simple thing work.
All experienced fishermen are technical, experienced river fishermen are very technical . We just don't know how to describe what we do. Without actually being instructed we have learned as children do by copying and trial and error. Often getting it right and sometimes not. Most of us become competent using natures own way.
The instructor is trying to take us by the hand and take us more quickly to the goal of catching a trout and has to take all these casts and break them down into parts then fit them back together. If something is going wrong or could be done better then there have to be words to describe the problem.
Malcolm
I don't think you can teach someone to cast by talking to them. Their eyes glaze over and they stop listening within a few seconds. We learn by observation and making mistakes. Try describing an egg to someone who has been blind from birth, now give them the egg and get them to describe it and only correct them when they get it wrong. The learning process is accelerated when the student is shown what mistakes they are making and what is the correct way.
I'm not a qualified instructor and was shown how to cast when I was 18 by a very good friend who, although the same age as me, had been fly fishing for a number of years. I have emulated him by teaching a number of people how to cast. Within two hours I could have them casting and shooting line that got them fishing and catching fish. They may not have been the most delicate of casters but they were over the moon at being able to do it. Over the years I have seen these same people get better and better the more practice they got. Like Malcolm I use various casts for different situations. Whether they have a name or are in the casting book I have no idea. As long as I get the line out and catch some fish occasionally I don't think it really matters. I think it goes the same for someone who just wants to be able to cast the fly and catch some fish.
The observations of Malcom and Fishtales have a lot of Valid points.
I do not give a jot what you call a cast as long as it is doing what you intended it to do. If I teach someone ,say the roll cast, now in itself it is a pretty worthless cast........to some. But if you then think outside the box and add a jump it then becomes the foundation for a spey, no where on the river is uncastable now. So if Malcom and FT add something else to that cast does it matter if it has a name? No.
I try to teach people how to recognise their faults,my thinking being if they can see the fault and the cure themselves, it makes progress quicker
If an Angler on a river comes to a difficult lie on a river,the good angler,Malcom,Buzz etc maybe sit and work the cast out in their head before they even attempt it.It may mean a difficult cast or simply a move down the bank a bit. My point is they think first then simplify it in their head. Well I think they do anyway I may be corrected.
I think what I am trying to say is what aperson does with the cast after the Lesson is ok with me. If it was meant. Happy days :D
Brian
Quote from: Brian Mcg on February 21, 2011, 05:25:21 PM
The observations of Malcom and Fishtales have a lot of Valid points.
I do not give a jot what you call a cast as long as it is doing what you intended it to do. If I teach someone ,say the roll cast, now in itself it is a pretty worthless cast........to some. :D
Brian
Interesting to read that. when I had my first lesson with Robin Elwis, he spent so much of the time perfecting my roll cast. Dragging out the patient formation of the D, working on the acceleration and refining the stop ( tap) for the delivery. Then focusing on just working the tip or bring the mid section into play.... feeling the rod, and maintaining the patience.
Putting the back cast to it and Finally doing a full over head cast, seemed a quick add on and just a natural progression of the perfected roll cast.
Whether this was good or bad practice I dint know. When I do get glitches now it tends to be from over-excitement/panic speeding up my casting stroke ,and its the back section of the cast that lets me down.
I don't know if that stems from my first lesson, but at least now I know how to rectify it, and for the small stream work i do, most of my casts come from variations of that roll cast or from the 'feel' Robin insisted i developed before he let me extend to full casting.
Is it a foundation building cast for most casting instructors or is Robin unusual in this?
Brian - yes there was indeed a bit of joking there! I am definitely aware of the benefits of listening to others.
The speys open up a heck of a lot of new areas on the river you can cast to but as Malcolm really drilled home to me - a very, very useful skill is being able to roll/spey to a reasonable distance with a very shallow D-loop. So often when practising I chuck a huge length of line behind me - not much use in those arse against the overgrown bank situation :)
I agree 100% with Alan in that a learner will learn when he realises his mistakes. It's the same in any situation - you learn from experiencing the mistake. The instructor's job then is in part to point these mistakes out and show the person how to fix them. The approach is obviously a lot different for differing levels of "expertise" if that's the right word of the person being taught.
Wp you notice I say the cast is worthless to SOME. Not to people who will utilise it. I do not think that Robin is unusual in Teaching the roll cast first. The point I was trying to make is that if you take a mundane cast like the roll cast,look where it leads.
Last night I met davefromtheattic(don't know what I was expecting with a nom de plume like that :D) for a Cast or two. Now the guy can cast(mostly self taught) and we went through a few things(to much). Some people say that you cannot teach"FEEL" Maybe so ,but you can try and describe what you are feeling. I told him I was feeling the energy from my left leg,hip(semi open stance) and transferring it to my right leg,hip by very slightly rocking back and forward during the casting cycle. We were doing the overhead cast at the time,but it could be any cast. It seem to work for him (only he will know)and his casting looked smoother and less laboured. All in all I think with Dave he will become a really proficient caster as you can see the thirst for knowledge in the questions he asked.We went from the roll cast,to single speys to oval casts.
Scott the cast that Malcolm uses(shallow d loop) only enforces what I am saying about taking a cast,and making it into a hybrid cast to suit any given situation. You are right you should be able to teach mistakes. Try and do a deliberate tailing loop and it is quite hard,only because you have went throught the process of not doing tailing loops. It becomes ingrained in you not to make a mistake(doesn't stop me)
Brian
Brian,
In my way of thinking there are no hybrid casts. A corkscrew cast where the whole line ends up at 90 deg to the angle of the backcast is no more a hybrid than the classic spey or overhead.
Casts are made up of components that we can mix or match at need.
Personally I don't think of specific casts but rather a bag of tools that we have at our disposal that we can choose from for the demands of a given situation: these tools are
1. the back cast which can be formed from a spey, switch, one of the rolls, snaps, pokes, overhead, side cast, maybe the line on the water behind the caster. Sometimes making a "position" cast before making a "delivery" cast.
2. Line trajectory: to the side, overhead, off the water.
3 D Loop placement. often the placement of the D loop for "off the water" casts may be quite far away from the body - really wherever there is space.
4. Position of the fly in relation to the line loop. It's sometimes possible to cast with the fly above the line but sometimes it's to the side and sometimes the fly is underneath the line loop.
5. Loop and line control. Being able to deliver very tight loops, open loops, curves(mends) and hooks off any kind of preparation is important.
6. Lot's of miscellaneous things: Letting a snake roll unwind into a gap in the vegetation, drifting a fly into position etc.
It's the way I see it - but I am not an instructor.
Malcolm you may not be an Instructor but you have a clear understanding of Casting and that will do for me.
I understand what you are saying about "Hybrid" casts. I suppose what I am really meaning is how you use it. Wether you use it in the classical sense or modernise it. I refer to these casts as combos. You have a different term for them,fine by me.
If you were to show somebody one of your casts I would hazard a guess that they would say " i never thought of doing it that way" or some sort of comment along these lines. That is because we all see things differently but when shown another way accept it readily or totally dismiss it. The ones to dismiss it imo are daft :D
Brian
Quote from: Brian Mcg on February 21, 2011, 07:58:04 AM
I am a believer that an ego,like a balloon is easy deflated.
I do like the balloon analogy Brian. I have invariably found that it's pretty easy to predict how inflated egos will react if you prod them just a little in the right places. That can be a useful tool for solving potentially problematic situations. :D