The Wild Fishing Forum

Stiff rods have advantages for casting, but I'm pretty sure I lose more fish with them due to hooks tearing out. I also believe tippet breakages are more frequent.

What do you think and why?

(Poll results are only visible to those who have voted)

I would tend to say so, having said that I have never owned one so might not be the best person to answer.
But one thing I will say that for Sea Trout fishing & especially in tidal water a "stiff" rod is a distinct disadvantage. Too often I have seen anglers using "reservoir" type casting tools & loosing more Sea Trout (fresh fish off the tide) & generally at night than they land whilst myself with the "traditional actioned" wet fly rod having more success. I suspect because of the rod but maybe a bit because I know what I am doing.
Not concrete proof but more a reflection on use over many years.
I am a great watcher of people & no disrespect to "modern" anglers & by that I mean those that primarily fish in stocked dubs & the like but the general standard of "playing" a fish is generally poor. Too often I see fish "horsed" with resultant hooks pulling out or indeed more often than not tippets breaking but they do not seem to bother too much as there are always more to catch but many do not learn by their mistaes probably because they do not realise a mistake is being made. If I hook a big fish, seldom thogh that is I want to know if I can land it. If it indeed get's off I am happy within myself that it is not my fault, well well not all the time. The big Sea Trout lost on the Leven was my fault for not knowing that the bale arm had a metal cut worn into it but as a younster you do not think of these things. Now older & hopefully wiser, poor tackle is never going to let me down.
So yes coupled along with that & stiff rods will in fact cause a number of fish to be lost over a given time period.

Tight Lines

For years I used a loomis 10foot stiff as a poker mainly for rainbows but would also use it to bounce brown over the surface, things have changed now fishing for browns with a power tec rod which is a lot softer. I did break with the loomis but have also broken with the power tecd, I used both rods for dry's, nymphs  and lures.
The reason I have backed away from the loomis is elbow problems and with the softer rod I don't suffer the same but the loomis is a great rod for pumping the line into the wind.

Mostly a loch fisher, i like a stiffer rod for hook ups as i often fish a long line even when I'm fishing the margins. Unless there is a good wave/wind i like to be back from the shoreline or well along the bank from where my flies are fishing. The initial runs when the trout is fresh will have a decent length of line in play to help cushion the shocks. To my mind i dont think i lose more fish in play than when i used a softer action rod but i think i spook less fish before they get a look at my flies now. Sb

In the correct hands probably no, but but for me I'm thinking possibly yes. I recently changed back to softer actioned rods (by no means a quick process) and the four I use for most my fishing are middle or middle to tip. The most used now, a Norwich and a Vision Cult, are more enjoyable to cast and get better results in presentation and feel.

The cushion provided when playing decent trout was very noticeable last season and let me keep them where I wanted them.
My biggest trout last season was a battle but I always had it at a manageable distance. Each run I could slow down and turn without giving too much line which seemed to confuse and subdue that fish.

Not that I'll object if I ever get taken into the backing and I still lost some nice ones, that's fishing for you.
Next year I hope will give me a chance to rack up some conclusive evidence.

.

I have no doubt stiff rods lose fish. I just can't understand why the rod manufacturers came up with this idea other than to sell more rods to fisherman that think it'll help them cast a yard further.

Paul,  anyone who wants to sell you anything has to make you believe you need it. Casting is important, but it's not everything by any  means and this is where the sales hype has been focused for some years on  lines as well as rods.  There's a rod and line for every occasion, it has gone beyond practical considerations.

Fishing considerations seem to have become almost secondary on the casting fields and ponds.  You don't lose fish or witness  brutal presentation on football pitches.

Well i can cast more accurately, longer and i prefer to fish long lines as i prefer to be further from the wild trout than they can see me . Tip action lets me take up the slack and strike. I buy them  because i think they are better and i have never measured how far i can cast. Sb   :)

OK, here's a different angle on it.

My own observations of breakages over many years both by myself and others I have fished with have shown without doubt that the tippets / leaders don't break, knots do. These knots may just be poorly tied and not tested, or may very often be "wind knots" - nothing to do with wind – but caused  by poor casting technique resulting in tailing loops.  Perhaps they should be called "tailing loop knots".

Stiff rods are less forgiving  of poor technique for the average caster. IMO they also encourage anglers to cast out with their comfort / ability  zone and beyond their control capabilities. Tailing loops and "tailing loop  knots" are bound to happen.  So, add "tailing loop knots" to a reluctance of the rod  to bend / give and you have a recipe for disaster.

I'm not advocating floppy rods, far from it, I can't abide them, but  most of the better / most successful fly fishers  I know do go for mid to tip action.

I voted no because as far as I'm concerned they dont, however I have only ever fished with fast rods. Its definitely a case of each to their own. If someone who normally fishes a 'slow' rod then the transaition to a poker is likely to take a bit of getting used to. Likewise I cant get my cast adjusted for anything too bendy, it just feels wrong.
I cant remember the last time I lost a fish. I agree with Fred when he suggests that a lot more are lost due to a dodgy business end, knots, nylon etc.

Rod angle will presumably have a significant effect on the cushioning and a rod held too low is likely to increase the chances of break-of. Once any slack is back onto the reel .... !! .... a high rod angle must help matters.

I hadn't given this much thought till I fished with a guy called Jan Siman a few years ago in Czech Republic as an add on to a weekend in Prague.

He was the chap who brought Czech nymph to the UK back in the 80s when he won the World Championships on the Welsh Dee.

Im not into competitions but his methods were very interesting and I learned a lot in a day with him, anyway he said the Czechs used light soft rods in 2-4 wt  so they didn't loose fish on barbless hooks in matches . I think we fished rods with boron in the blanks , which he said had the best action for playing fish.

However a lot of the time in Scotland a little backbone is required for casting and I prefer a mid to tip action for most of my fishing.

ATB Colin

Quote from: Alan on December 20, 2013, 11:47:45 PM
i lost a fish in the presence of Fred by dropping the rod low when it took off last season,

And 1/2 hour later I lost one. Broken, probably my best fish  of the season. Inspection showed the tell tale piggy tail at the break. A  "wind knot" or as it really is a "crap casting knot". When casting at the limit of your ability as  was that time, you really should check your leader frequently or learn how cast a bit better.   :lol:

I voted "Don't know", because well, I don't know if a different rod would have lost/landed a fish for me.

what I do know is that a rod which bends more readily into the mid and lower sections gives me more margin for error when playing a fish. It is a more efficient shock absorber than a rod which bends only at the tip.

A rod is three things. A lever when we are pulling line through the air, a spring when we stop the rod and it pings the line into a  travelling loop and lastly, a shock absorber when playing a fish.

At times the ability to cast a long line is useful, but for me the tip to middle or "progessive" action gives the best compromise.

Alex

I went for don't know. I don't think any of the rods I've ever fished with would be thought of as stiff and a lot are/were definitely soft action. Most time I lose fish its because the hook pulls out and when it happens I just accept the hook hold wasn't that good although sometimes I wonder if I should have gone a bit easier; I'd guess a stiffer action rod would make it more rather than less likely for a hook to pull out. Any time I get breaks there usually seems to be a poor/wind knot involved.

I fish with a range of rods from 7ft6 1wt (river and kayak) to 9ft 3wt (loch and boat) to 10ft 7wt (salmon) to my little used 14ft 10wt and have fished most sizes in between.

Where stiffness is concerned, especially with supposedly casting rods rather than fishing rods, I suspect some of the problem is down to physics and where more fish might be lost is because the rod does not match the average weight of the quarry and the quarry can move/react faster than the rod/fisherman can.

For example to give an extreme example, when I have a 1lb fish under pressure on the 1wt, the arc is about 9/10 the length of the rod and that gives space and time for adjustment either by the rod or the fisherman when the fish surges, if I have a 1lb fish on a 10wt only the top 1/10 of the rod is under pressure and the time for the rod/fisherman to react is similarly reduced as too little pressure and hook gets thrown, too much pressure and hook gets thrown/pulled out/etc.

Most marketing of the 70's 80's and 90's was directed at the cast for the horizon stockie brigade to catch more fish and therefore stiffer, more powerful rods were in vogue, however the 00's have shown quite a few manufacturers focusing on more 'river' rods giving a more through action and softer response, but which also suit a lot of wild and Scottish fishing.

Hopefully more and more people will see the light and opt for more sensible sized and actioned rods and enjoy their fishing all the more as a 3lb wild fish on a 1wt is something you will never forget.

Yes that makes a lot of sense Stonepark.  :D

Quote from: admin on December 19, 2013, 11:28:07 AM
Stiff rods have advantages for casting, but I'm pretty sure I lose more fish with them due to hooks tearing out. I also believe tippet breakages are more frequent.

What do you think and why?

(Poll results are only visible to those who have voted)

I have now sold all bar one of my fast action/ stiff rods and replaced them with medium action and lighter lined rods.
My go to rod now for the Loughs is a 10ft 5wt Hardy Marksman or Grey's Streamflex . I might go to a 10ft 6wt in windy conditions when pulling wets.
On the rivers I use a 9ft 4wt Streamflex most of the time . The reasons were as you said - pulling out of fish for no apparent reason and breaking light tippets.
I have to say that using lighter , softer rods are a joy to use compared to the 'pokers' I started out with.
The only fast rod I now use is A Sage Z Axis 9ft 4wt - which for some strange reason is a joy to use and I will not part with it.
Ian

Is it not a case of the line rating of the rod rather than the action. I see lots of anglers fishing with 8 weight rods for trout then trying to use fine light leaders - a recipe for disaster I think. I use a fast action Sage in a 4 weight and have no problems breaking off or pulling the hook out.

I went for don't know but to be brutally honest it's not the rod its the angler and the set up. If you are using a broomstick like rod and trying to use 4lb tippet then with added weakness to that with the knot then you are just asking for trouble. With flurocarbon being as thin as it is there is not real reason in my opinion why a much stronger leader can't be used for a stiffer rod.

I can't abide slow whippy rods but that is maybe because I have only ever owned one and it now hold the status of "her rod"... I bought it thinking it would make fun of poor waters, which to some extent it did but I have lost more fish over the pound on it than any other rod. The rod in question is a Wychwood Trufly - horrible thing... I much prefer my Swift & Cascapedia.

I think softer rods give you an edge over faster or stiffer rods for example my 13ft just bends to every move of a salmon  so a weaker hook holds better

I used to fish with a fairly soft rod but had to change it a couple of years ago due to back trouble. It was too much effort to cast and went for my back.
I bought a Hardy Demon last year and while it casts well, I miss the softer rod as the takes just don't quite feel the same.
I couldn't go any stiffer than the Demon. Anything stiffer just feels horrible to fish with.

There is definitely a case for different rods and actions for different types of fishing. Many years ago I had a Shakespeare Oberon 12ft 5 weight with a soft through action. For boat fishing with floating lines it was fantastic. It couldn't handle anything other than a short floating line though. Unfortunately it was quite poorly made and broke at the butt. I never bought another.
I moved on to a Hardy Ultralite 10ft 6 weight (20 years ago). It has quite a unique action probably best described as middle to tip. It has a 'brisk' recovery compared to the casting sticks that are on the go now but is a great all rounder with plenty of tip to butt bend when a bigger fish is on. I am still using it to this day on the lochs from bank and boat. If it breaks I will be looking for another one.

As far as rivers go, I have an 8ft Orvis Trident 5 weight (operates better with a 4 weight I think)which has a fast but very nice action . It is great on bigger rivers and particularly with dries at any distance. Line pick up great.
I have a 7ft greys 3 weight which is very soft and is good fun on smaller rivers and in confined space but I often fail to connect with takes as the soft action isn't great for line pick up so slows the connection to the take considerably.

I think the rigid casting poles on the go these days are good for casting and for dragging Hi D lines along the bottom for stockies. Great if that's your thing.

I use a 10' Daiwa #7 three piece with 5 Lb Maxima Chameleon nylon for the cast for all my fishing. It is a middle to tip action, I would say although it isn't something I have thought about, and I don't have any trouble with it. I tried a mates soft rod once, it was like casting with a piece of cooked spaghetti, it wobbled all over the place. It was the worst rod I have ever tried.

Quote from: Alan on April 15, 2014, 06:09:18 PM
Is this still going!

The best anal threads never die.   :lol:

I think when traditional short lining from a boat I undoubtedly lose more when using a stiffer rod. The troot just seem to be on for a second then off again. Although this can happen when I use a softer rod, it is nowhere near as often.

From the bank I nearly always use the stiffer rod, but don't fish quite the same way, so the difference in bumping fish off is not so pronounced.

Billy