Alex put me on to this. I now use it on all my fly lines. Beats all other loop types I have tried by a mile. Strong, neat, sealed and waterproof.
Here are step by step instructions on the salmon forum, no need to re-invent the wheel. Take a look. You can use a heat gun or a fag lighter, I have used both with complete success.
http://salmo.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=lines&action=display&thread=1686
This may not work with every fly line make, depends on the coating. It works very well with Wildfisher lines. For trout lines just double the line back an inch or less and slip the heat shrink on, it is enough. Don't bother with using two bits of line as shown, it is an overkill. What is important is the method. I have tested these loops to destruction. They won't break. :lol:
I make welded loops but I just double over the line and apply the heat-shrink. I've never had them come apart. Still don't like them on my dry fly set up though - I use them on most other lines.
Norm
Quote from: Element on April 10, 2011, 09:29:14 PM
That looks a great idea - but where do you source the heat shrink tubing from (ps got a wee bit spare Norm? :D )...
E.
Yes, just pop round.....
Norm
That's a good link. I'd be tempted to use this on an intermediate or slow sinker but not on a floater. I had a factory loop a while back and felt that it landed a little heavy on the water even when my cast was a good one. It serves as a reminder that fly line manufactures let us down, by not making a line that tapers to a fine point with a small loop attached, leaving us to by poly leaders and so on to make the link between fly line and leader. A fly line that ends with one of those little metal rings would be good.
I tried that whitlock join but several joins and the line snapped every time - the plastic sheared away - so I went back to whipping the exposed core which has never let me down.
Quote from: Alan on April 11, 2011, 01:31:56 AM
never seen this happen in 2 seasons use
Once you break the 2lb that could all change. :lol:
Sorry Alan, couldn't resist :lol:
There's the difference Alan. I spend more time fishing for seatrout and salmon than I do for resident brownies and grayling. The average weight of the seatrout is over 3lbs and the salmon average about 7lb and last year I had several around the 10lb mark. To get them in quickly I hold the rod about 15 inches above the handle with the butt tucked in my midriff to get enough pressure on.
So when I pulled the whitlock join and the plastic sheared (I tried several times and I abraded the end of the leader with sandpaper) I knew that it was a risk I wasn't going to take. Now if I was fishing a 5 weight with a 5lb point that wouldn't concern me at all - the point would break first. It is a neat joint but unless I am making a mistake - and that is more than possible - then there are stronger solutions.
Make sure you get the heatshrink that has glue already inside it. Some of it comes without and will be more likey to come apart. You can get it from RS components, Maplin Electronics, Farnell etc or in fact just about anywhere that does electronics. I have some here if anyone needs some.
cheers
daz
Quote from: daz on April 11, 2011, 07:25:58 PM
Make sure you get the heatshrink that has glue already inside it. Some of it comes without and will be more likey to come apart. You can get it from RS components, Maplin Electronics, Farnell etc or in fact just about anywhere that does electronics. I have some here if anyone needs some.
cheers
daz
for a welded loop you don't want glue, the tubing simply forms the weld and is then taken off
Quotefor a welded loop you don't want glue, the tubing simply forms the weld and is then taken off
Remember to get the clear stuff. You need to be able to see what is happening to the fly line coating.
Alex
The stuff I use is called "King of the Pond" Super Shrink Tube. It's 2.4mm and is used in Carp rigs - got it off Ebay. I don't see why normal electrical type heat shrink shouldn't work but as Alex has pointed out it's better if it is clear as you can actually watch the line "meld" in front of your eyes.
Norm
The welded loop must keep the tip floating high, which would be a plus . I am still using the no -knot join with zap a gap which has yet to fail in action, but the tip will sink eventualy without a bit of mucilin/floatant.
Joe
Quote from: Ythanjoe on April 12, 2011, 12:24:10 AM
The welded loop must keep the tip floating high, which would be a plus . I am still using the no -knot join with zap a gap which has yet to fail in action, but the tip will sink eventualy without a bit of mucilin/floatant.
Joe
Don't you believe it, I sunk one a few time at the weekend :lol:
May try the Sally nail stuff in the privacy of my home Alan, but its not what I want found in my fly vest with the Avon skin so soft, if the proverbial bus, or heavy spate snuffs me out :gay4
If the welded loop doesn't ride high what are its merits relative to other methods, did yours sink because the coating was nicked/ cut Scotty ?
Joe
Joe - no it wasn't, it was probably just the river currents to be honest.
The welded loop just gives you the flexibility of a loop-to-loop connection without a join like you get with a braided loop. Saves you chopping up the fly line for nail knots too. I love the idea of the loop but I just don't get on with them as well as a needle knot.
Not keen on loop to loops, combined with long leaders they don't slip through the tip ring so well, if theres a last minute dash at the net, see what you mean about eating away at the end of the fly line though, every time the leader needs replacing, although it doesnt make much difference to my casting until I'm 20" or so into the line....
Joe
QuoteIf the welded loop doesn't ride high what are its merits relative to other methods,
I've only used the d.i.y. welded loop on a fast sinker, but I have factory welded loops on some of my lines and they do float OK. Even if the thick portion of the tapered leader starts sinking and pulling the tip under, I don't find it too inconvenient to give the leader butt and flyline tip a quick wipe with mucilin.
Some of my lighter lines like the #4 have needle knotted leaders and I prefer needle knots for smoothness and delicacy on the light set-up. I tend to use the welded loops on the heavier lines, #5 or above.
Where the welded loops do score over the needle knot is when you need to change a knackered leader fast, or if you are a fan of polyleaders (I'm not) or furled leaders, which I'm giving another trial.
For the furled leader I use a loop to loop connection and for standard mono leaders I use a 3 turn half blood to the welded loop to prevent hingeing in the cast.
QuoteNot keen on loop to loops, combined with long leaders they don't slip through the tip ring so well
The furled leader actually copes quite well with that, but not as smooth as a needle knot. The half blood trimmed really snug is not bad at all. again, not as smooth as a needle knot, but all my fish in NZ were landed on that set up without any problems, as was a 3 lb Clyde fish on Sunday :D
Alex
Thanks Alex, I like the furled leader for my small river set up , until now the loop to loop has had a weak point as I have stripped the line to core and whipped it back, it always seems to hinge at the junction between floppy loop and end of coated fly line, tried various products to stiffen the loop but a welded loop would sort this out . Should give a higher ride in choppy water too as the furled leader accepts a good dose of mucilin, will give this a go , if the loop is tight enough and doesn't hinge it should give better line control through to tippet, I,m a crap caster so short distance issues like this are a fact of my fishing life, especially in pocket water :D
Joe
You are welcome Joe. Let me know how you get on with it eh?
One thing to remember for anyone trying this, is to test run it on an old fly line (ideally one with the same coating as the one you intend to try for real).
I found Airflo coating quite difficult to work with, but got there in the end. Most lines have PVC coatings and these are easier to melt and weld than Airflo's polyurethane jobs.
Alex.
Quote from: haresear on April 13, 2011, 12:49:47 AM
as was a 3 lb Clyde fish on Sunday :D
That's bigger than the browns I had at the weekend :lol:
Quote from: haresear
eh?
You've been in kiwi land too long! :lol:
How long have you used the no knot join before failure Alan? I had two fail on testing last year, but that was before I switched to zap a gap, no problems so far this season, I put a smear of epoxy on the leader exit from the fly line , and the small hole...
Joe
Go for the best of both worlds, needle the leader through and tie a 3 turn nail knot. Small enough it never hangs in the guides, it slides out by shaking the line on the water and is probably never going to part.
Quote from: haresear on April 13, 2011, 12:49:47 AM
The half blood trimmed really snug is not bad at all. again, not as smooth as a needle knot
Alex
Using the above method I coat the knot with LOON U.V. KNOT STRENGTH. It is clear, and for a few seconds can be rolled to form a smooth taper over the end of the line and onto the first 2 or 3 mm of the butt piece. It is U.V. so applied in sunlight it cures in about 30 seconds. Permanent and I've never had one break or deteriorate. Particularly useful for clear intermediates with permanent butt piece and ring.
Greenwell
Quote from: greenwell on April 17, 2011, 12:41:43 PM
Using the above method I coat the knot with LOON U.V. KNOT STRENGTH. It is clear, and for a few seconds can be rolled to form a smooth taper over the end of the line and onto the first 2 or 3 mm of the butt piece. It is U.V. so applied in sunlight it cures in about 30 seconds. Permanent and I've never had one break or deteriorate. Particularly useful for clear intermediates with permanent butt piece and ring.
Greenwell
Thanks Greenwell, I was thinking about this today and the Loon stuff sprung to mind.
QuoteGo for the best of both worlds, needle the leader through and tie a 3 turn nail knot. Small enough it never hangs in the guides, it slides out by shaking the line on the water and is probably never going to part.
That's my usual method, with dab of superglue for a belt and braces approach.
Alex
Quote from: Alan on April 17, 2011, 11:00:09 PM
er..super glue isnt too good with water..zap a gap is waterproof super glue, and it glues waders, boots bits onto cars, my eyelid to my finger :D
Aye that, or more accurately Fishin' Glue is what I use.
The join was not popular with Saturday's whumpers :8)
Alex
This is the join I now use - it's super strong but creates a short stiffer section.
Take about 3 inches of hollow braided nylon and push the line in then whip using a fly bobbin.
[attachimg=1]
Take a par of pliers and squeeze on the end of the leader to create a series of ridges
[attachimg=2]
put the end of the leader in the other half of the hollow braided backing and whip on again using exactly the same technique as before.
Smear with Zap a Gap. Strictly this isn't necessary as the whipped joint will hold to the destruction of the fly line if it's done properly. I've tried it.
[attachimg=3]
Well, after a few months of testing I have decided these welded loops are not the best. Just like commercially made welded loops they crack and hinge at the back too quickly. The speed of disintegration depends on the make of line and the temperature / method used to shrink the sleeve, but they all fall to bits sooner or later.
So, it's back to nail / needle knots or the method I was using 30 years ago – that is - strip back an inch or so of the line coating, fold back and whip with fine thread then seal with glue. That's still the best, neatest and most long lasting loop I have used.
QuoteThe speed of disintegration depends on the make of line and the temperature / method used to shrink the sleeve
I've had no problems with cracking at all. You aren't leaving the shrink tube on are you Fred? It should be removed by snipping/tearing once the lin'e coating has welded.
Alex
I remove the tube Alex. I think it's probably a temperature issue. A controlled heat gun would be better, but that said I have had the same with commercially preformed loops on lines. The whipped loop is much smaller and neater, although more of a hassle to make. That said they seem to last a lot longer (for me anyway). I need to do some experimenting with a flexible adhesive like silicon RTV which will make them more pliable.
QuoteThe whipped loop is much smaller and neater, although more of a hassle to make. That said they seem to last a lot longer (for me anyway).
I wouldn't argue with that.
On the durability of the welded loops (factory or DIY), I have heard of them failing under strain and it is always in the back of my mind when I'm playing a particicularly good fish (a certain eleven pound brownie springs to mind) , but so far I've had no problems.
Alex
I don't worry about them pulling apart, I think the strain required to do that would break the tippet first, but you are right, it is a risk not worth taking when fishing in places like New Zealand where there is a very realistic chance of not just one, but possibly several big fish. More fish, more the chances or a problem. The whipped loop needs an adhesive and so far I have not tried one that does not harden - that in itself is a cause of cracking although I do find even then they last longer.
Anyone tried these Moser minicons that Oliver Edwards goes on about?
I thought I'd try them out a couple of months ago. I couldn't avoid the line splitting at the plastic sleeve on every line I put them on. Plus, they are a pain in the arse to get out the tip ring. I've gone back to the needle knot. Minimum bulk :8)
QuoteThe whipped loop needs an adhesive and so far I have not tried one that does not harden
Fred have you tried Aquasure
Tight Lines
I've always burnt the line when trying this :lol:
Needle knot for me, I love it. I just use the same leader for dries, nymphing, even streamer bashing. I just cut the tippet or build more on appropriately, hasn't caused me any bother.
Quote from: Alan on July 25, 2011, 01:15:46 AM
got a knick out of a line so bin, its got a leader glued in if anyone wants to do a try to pull it out strenght test?
Alan,
Could you try that one again, please, in English ? :?
T
Quote from: Teither on July 26, 2011, 03:58:48 PM
Alan,
Could you try that one again, please, in English ? :?
T
ah, so you don't have the Gaelic then? :lol:
Quote from: admin on July 26, 2011, 04:03:06 PM
ah, so you don't have the Gaelic then? :lol:
I do have a few words and phrases - the usual conversational stuff - but I have absolutely no double-Dutch !! :lol:
T
A wonderful multi-linguist is our Alan
His native language when talking about casting is a curiously musical mixture of Serbo-Croat and Mearns Doric so if Fred would kindly take a course in the former it would be helpful for translation purposes.
Hans may be able to help with the Double Dutch.