Hello all been tying some Dry spiders down into the 20s sizes for next year.I was hanging a dry spider of my favourate snowshoe emergers often last season.The spiders were right up there even out fishing my Snowshoe ones sometimes.I never see anyone else using them where i fish guess there just old fashioned now.Been using cheapish midge capes from the US for the small ones if anyone is interested.http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290665465081?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290665465081?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649)
They are only small capes but still plenty of useful hackles for your money.Cheers
I'm a big fan of spiders too wet and dry. I fish the wets on the dropper with a dry on the tail.
The dries I use have light seals fur bodies and I usually cut the hackle from underneath the body. I was shown this style by a bailiff on the Wiltshire Bourne around 1984 although of course this type of fly has been around for ever. He had a box full of them in various colours and sizes and virtually no other patterns.
I will need to give them a go with seal bodies as i have loads of seal dubbing anyway.As for clipping the hackle underneath i saw this suggested with Quigleys Cripples too.Cheers :D
When you talk about a dry spider do you mean spiders tied with a cock hackle and possibly wings such as a cock hackled Greenwells Spider or Greenwells Glory upwing ?
Quote from: guest on February 13, 2012, 09:42:48 PM
When you talk about a dry spider do you mean spiders tied with a cock hackle and possibly wings such as a cock hackled Greenwells Spider or Greenwells Glory upwing ?
Spiders don't have wings Donald :worried :)
Quote from: fishtales on February 13, 2012, 10:05:01 PM
Spiders don't have wings Donald :worried :)
That's how I'm confused Sandy, I didn't think you got "Dry" spiders. I thought they were either spiders which are wets or dry flies which aren't spiders :P
Donald,
I've always assumed that dry spiders are the same as hackled dries (i.e. without wings). For example the Beacon Beige or the Bates Badger.
Quote from: guest on February 13, 2012, 10:57:10 PM
That's how I'm confused Sandy, I didn't think you got "Dry" spiders. I thought they were either spiders which are wets or dry flies which aren't spiders :P
This is my Dry Fly
(http://www.ftscotland.co.uk/gallery/flies/dryfly.619x725.jpg)
And my Draftexcluder Dry Fly
(http://www.ftscotland.co.uk/gallery/flies/draft_excluder.964x680.jpg)
Both have no wings so are spider dries or hackle dries if you prefer :)
O.k. once I've finished the Adams dries I'm tying at the moment I'm going to tie some Parachute Adams' dries before I move onto a few Adams Dry spiders then :roll: :makefun
Oh then I'll tie some Griffiths Gnat dry spiders just for good measure ! :lol:
This just get's more confusing. North Country Spiders has a Greenwell's Glory listed as a Spider http://www.northcountryflies.com/north-country-flies/1-GG-EL.html (http://www.northcountryflies.com/north-country-flies/1-GG-EL.html)
(http://www.northcountryflies.com/user/products/Greenwell-Spider-1.jpg)
and Phil at Spidersplus has a Black Spider listed as a Dry Black Spider but no picture
http://www.spidersplus.co.uk/shop/results.asp?category=2 (http://www.spidersplus.co.uk/shop/results.asp?category=2)
I just thought a Spider by definition was a soft hackled wet fly which used a game bird as the hackle but it would seem things ain't quite as clear cut and the square is getting circled somewhere ? :?
It doesn't matter what he has it listed under by definition a spider doesn't have wings. The original spider patterns as you say were soft hackle flies but they were fished wet, damp and dry as needed. The cock hackled dry fly without wings is more commonly known as a hackled dry fly rather than a spider but, as it is wingless, it is still a spider :)
Donald, there is a dry pattern known as the Greenwell Spider (basically the same as the dry winged Greenwell with a cock furnace hackle, but without the wing). The photo in your link is the wet Greenwell. There is also a wet Greenwell spider.
http://www.theessentialfly.com/trout-flies/greenwell-dry.html (http://www.theessentialfly.com/trout-flies/greenwell-dry.html)
I'm not sure if I've helped or confused the issue further :?
Alex
Quote from: fishtales on February 14, 2012, 12:29:03 PM
It doesn't matter what he has it listed under by definition a spider doesn't have wings. The original spider patterns as you say were soft hackle flies but they were fished wet, damp and dry as needed. The cock hackled dry fly without wings is more commonly known as a hackled dry fly rather than a spider but, as it is wingless, it is still a spider :)
Without being pedantic, how can you fish a Soft hackled Spider "
dry " ?
Quote from: haresear on February 14, 2012, 02:14:34 PM
Donald, there is a dry pattern known as the Greenwell Spider (basically the same as the dry winged Greenwell with a cock furnace hackle, but without the wing). The photo in your link is the wet Greenwell. There is also a wet Greenwell spider.
http://www.theessentialfly.com/trout-flies/greenwell-dry.html (http://www.theessentialfly.com/trout-flies/greenwell-dry.html)
I'm not sure if I've helped or confused the issue further :?
Alex
Alex, I may have confused things here by calling the Dry Greenwells a Greenwells Glory but I was always of the opinion that the upwing version was the Greenwells Glory and the wet version was just a Wet Greenwells. Regardless of this, North Country Flies definately means the winged version when listing it on the site as a North Country spider http://www.northcountryflies.com/north-country-flies/page/2/ (http://www.northcountryflies.com/north-country-flies/page/2/)
Again, I don't want to be pedantic but I was always of the opinion that there was a Greenwells Spider, a Wet Winged Greenwells, A dry Greenwells which is tied without wings and an Upwinged dry Greenwells in different styles such as North Country, Clyde and Tummel. I dare say there is even a Dry Greenwells tied spent. I'd conceed that the Greenwells Glory as was originally intended is the wet winged version not the upwinged dry version.
I'm not disputing the fact you could refer to a Dry Greenwells as a Dry Greenwells Spider but this was never how things were intended and it might be a wingless Dry Greenwells but until recently I have never heard of any fly being referred to as a Dry Spider and the fact that Phil at Spidersplus hasn't even got round to producing a picture of a Dry Black Spider indicates to me that this is more of a fashion thing than how things were ever intended.
Folk are maybe now calling them Dry Spiders but I reckon if you were to use this term in conversation with a traditional dry fly fisherman you would start to see smoke coming out of his ears and it must therefore be a fairly modern trend in fly fishing terminology as a result. :wink: :)
Quote from: guest on February 14, 2012, 03:45:28 PM
Without being pedantic, how can you fish a Soft hackled Spider " dry " ?
When you take any fly out of the box and cast it without wetting it first it will usually float. The old anglers knew this and would fish the spider dry to a rising fish. They didn't float for long but they would sometimes rub some paraffin into the hackle to make them float longer. I suppose it would be more a damp fly than a recognised dry fly.
I'm not so sure that the "dry spider" is all that recent. In John Reid's "Clyde Style Flies (1971) he lists as "hackle dry flies" the march brown spider, black spider, red spider and greenwell spider.
Mind you, further back, Courtney William's "A Dictionary of Trout Flies" (1949) defines a spider as "a hackled wet fly..." He doesn't list any dry as a spider, but as a refers to "hackled dry flies".
I've got to say I'm a bit of a philistine when it comes to flies as I don't really care what the things are called or which materials are used. I just tie something that looks to me a bit like the natural insect and fish with it :)
Alex
When i was a school boy an old boy my father knew showed me how to tie Dry spiders.They were exactly like Col described.He would insist you only used 1/12 to 2 at most turns of hackle & it had to be pearsalls silk too.He only used a handful of patterns -Black Spider,Red & Yellow Spider,Greenwells Spider.Badger & Yellow Spider,Grizzly & Yellow Spider,& Grizzly in Medium & Dark Olive.He also tied a slightly bushier fly with a yellow body & Grizzle & redish Brown hackle mixed.I also use one with an Orange body & Grizzly hackle deadly in the summer months.They hang straight down like a klink but they out fish a klink for me anyway. Probably because they are tied very sparse & my kinks often land on there side. :D There down fall is they are hard to see on the water.I have been tying up some fairly sparse paraloops on curved hooks the last few days.So it might be spider vs paraloop this season or old versus newer just might be able to see the paraloops easier.I knew quite a few of these old timers & they all referred to them as Dry Spiders they never had Google in those days to tell them what they should be called. :lol:Cheers
It makes no real difference what you call a fly, or how some people insist on "defining" it, it is how you use it that makes it what it is.
TL
MC
Going back to the original post, i followed some traditional dry spider patterns to 16's even 18's and found trout refused them pretty consistently (might be my tying) Changing to flies, usually emergers, with a simple post type wing does it for me when they get choosy.
That said, I've banged on about how effective dry spider patterns are on here on a number of occasions when the big early season flies are out. I tied some dry march brown spiders for a fly swap a number of years ago. If anybody still has one in a box marked "spares" dig it out and try it this spring.
It comes with a money back guarantee :8)
Mac
Quote from: east wind on February 14, 2012, 08:42:43 PM
Going back to the original post, i followed some traditional dry spider patterns to 16's even 18's and found trout refused them pretty consistently (might be my tying) Changing to flies, usually emergers, with a simple post type wing does it for me when they get choosy.
That said, I've banged on about how effective dry spider patterns are on here on a number of occasions when the big early season flies are out. I tied some dry march brown spiders for a fly swap a number of years ago. If anybody still has one in a box marked "spares" dig it out and try it this spring.
It comes with a money back guarantee :8)
Mac
Are you tying them with a short thin body sparse with 1 1/2 turns of hackle.I find when tied like this they fish as an emerger.Cheers
Quote from: Rabmax on February 14, 2012, 09:54:19 PM
Are you tying them with a short thin body sparse with 1 1/2 turns of hackle.I find when tied like this they fish as an emerger.Cheers
Certainly a slim body which goes back to about the start of the barb. I use two different hackles on the flies, about two turns of both on each fly.
http://www.wildfisher.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=15590.0 (http://www.wildfisher.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=15590.0)
Mac
Quote from: east wind on February 14, 2012, 10:07:58 PM
Certainly a slim body which goes back to about the start of the barb. I use two different hackles on the flies, about two turns of both on each fly.
http://www.wildfisher.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=15590.0 (http://www.wildfisher.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=15590.0)
Mac
I am by no means an expert but the old timers i knew would say 4 turns of hackle would be better in faster water.1 1/2 -2 turns would be better in slower water & picky fish.His favourite fly he used fishing the Clyde was a Grizzle with yellow thread.Grizzle & yellows my favourite too but also with a medium & dark olive body.But looking at that lovely trout you posted you ain't doing that bad are you :lol:. Cheers
In late on this one but to me
A spider: is a hackled wet fly, generally tied sparse but not in every case.
A hacked dry: is a fly designed primarily to float, but again with no wing.
A Dry Spider is just a play on the name. With today's modern floatants one could float a bare hook if one wished.
One thing that holds true though A Spider never has a wing despite winged flies being misplaced in other peoples sales sites.
Tight Lines
I've been doing some googling on this subject as the term Dry Spider is a new one on me but here's some of what I've learned.
According to the " Orvis Fly-Fishing Guide " page 116 :-
" Spiders are dry flies with very long, stiff bushy hackles and tiny hooks. They are usually tied on a size 14 to 16 hook with hackles the size of a silver dollar and most often without bodies or tails. Spiders are fished with manipulation by the angler " skated "across the water. They are an interesting option when no other fly will work but often result in short strikes or the fish refusing the fly at the last minute. Some fly fishers use spiders to locate large fish, returning later with more conventional flies. "
I also found this you tube video of a pattern which was passed on by a chap who Fred may know called Johnny Walker who was / has been a fisherman on the Don for over forty years and swears by dry spiders.
http://www.theworldwidefishingclub.com/videos/311/102/dry-fly-the-spider-dry-spider (http://www.theworldwidefishingclub.com/videos/311/102/dry-fly-the-spider-dry-spider)
dry spider.MP4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8dNjpvknXk#ws)
So it seems there is more to Dry Spiders than meets the eye and it seems as though this is a discussion where everyone may be right.
Except North Country Angler, that is, who's got a photo of a Greenwells Glory Upwing Dry listed on his website as a North Country Spider. :roll: :makefun
QuoteSpiders are dry flies with very long, stiff bushy hackles and tiny hooks.
You have to remember this is American terminology & believe you me it gets "lost in translation"
for many UK fly & fishing types.
Quote from: guest on February 14, 2012, 11:18:14 PM
I've been doing some googling on this subject as the term Dry Spider is a new one on me but here's some of what I've learned.
According to the " Orvis Fly-Fishing Guide " page 116 :-
" Spiders are dry flies with very long, stiff bushy hackles and tiny hooks. They are usually tied on a size 14 to 16 hook with hackles the size of a silver dollar and most often without bodies or tails. Spiders are fished with manipulation by the angler " skated "across the water. They are an interesting option when no other fly will work but often result in short strikes or the fish refusing the fly at the last minute. Some fly fishers use spiders to locate large fish, returning later with more conventional flies. "
Those are Hewitt's spiders. Some info here;
http://www.flytyer.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2992&Itemid=90 (http://www.flytyer.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2992&Itemid=90)
http://classicflyrodforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=49895 (http://classicflyrodforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=49895)
http://www.sparsegreymatter.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=491 (http://www.sparsegreymatter.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=491)
TL
MC
it's easy for us to think that people from 50 years ago didn't put a dab of mucilin on their lightly dressed flies. I mentioned earlier that the lightly dressed spider flies with seals fur bodies were shown to me by a Wiltshire water bailiff in the mid 80s. However he had been using these lightly dressed flies for a long time. He was in his 50s then. I still keep in touch with him so I'll ask him where he got them from.
By the way I posted up on here a couple of years ago a spider variant which had a wing protruding in a straight line from the body - and as long as the body, before the hackle is tied in. It's a dressing I picked up in Farlows around 1981 - I remember Alex saying it was similar to a quigley cripple.
I have a copy of 'Border River Angling' by W. H. Lawrie published 1939.
He is talking about dry fly fishing.
'"Spiders" dressed with a stiff steely hackle on a short-shank hook are preferred to winged patterns."
As in all things the way we talk and describe things changes over time and the use of language is always in a flux. There are loads of words in use these days that seem strange to me as they are not used in the context that I remember them. Those people brought up in the modern usage don't find them strange and use them naturally and without a second thought. Etymology is as difficult as Entomology as things change and get re-classified :)
Quote from: Mike Connor on February 15, 2012, 12:30:20 AM
Those are Hewitt's spiders. Some info here;
http://www.flytyer.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2992&Itemid=90 (http://www.flytyer.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2992&Itemid=90)
TL
MC
Dry " Spiders " as per the link
(http://www.flytyer.com/images/stories/ftwebwi09/spider7.png)
(http://www.flytyer.com/images/stories/ftwebwi09/spider9.png)
Quote from: Highlander on February 14, 2012, 11:26:05 PM
You have to remember this is American terminology & believe you me it gets "lost in translation"
for many UK fly & fishing types.
I think something has defintely got lost, in the Mid Atlantic drift, of translation somewhere there Highlander :shock: :)
Quote from: fishtales on February 15, 2012, 08:40:01 AM
I have a copy of 'Border River Angling' by W. H. Lawrie published 1939.
He is talking about dry fly fishing.
'"Spiders" dressed with a stiff steely hackle on a short-shank hook are preferred to winged patterns."
As in all things the way we talk and describe things changes over time and the use of language is always in a flux. There are loads of words in use these days that seem strange to me as they are not used in the context that I remember them. Those people brought up in the modern usage don't find them strange and use them naturally and without a second thought. Etymology is as difficult as Entomology as things change and get re-classified :)
You'd get a job as a Philadelphia lawyer Sandy, that's like putting Alpha and Beta together to close an argument with Omega :lol:
Quote from: guest on February 14, 2012, 11:18:14 PM
I also found this you tube video of a pattern which was passed on by a chap who Fred may know called Johnny Walker who was / has been a fisherman on the Don for over forty years and swears by dry spiders.
http://www.theworldwidefishingclub.com/videos/311/102/dry-fly-the-spider-dry-spider (http://www.theworldwidefishingclub.com/videos/311/102/dry-fly-the-spider-dry-spider)
dry spider.MP4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8dNjpvknXk#ws)
I think I'll be tying a few of these fellows Donald, thanks for posting....