I'm going to throw out all of last years old tippet materials and refresh the bag with some new stuff for the coming season. Does anyone use any of the Stroft tippets, if so what's your thoughts on that or any other type that's been impressing you?
I've used stroft abr and like it. Small diameter for bs and not too expensive. I use it for tippet when fishing dries between tapered leader and fly. For nymphing I got put onto shogun off eBay. Really low diameter for bs and very strong. Oh and about 2.50 for 150 metres!!
I tried Stroft a good few years back. I had a few unexpected break offs so I ditched it in favour of Rio Powerflex which I use for most of my dry fly and nymph fishing.
For pulling flies, heavy nymphing and when using very big dries such as tarantulas etc. I just use coarse fishing mono or spinning mono.
Alex
I've always had a thing about clear mono or at least clear'ish'. Not sure how much it matters ?
Quote from: rannoch raider on December 19, 2017, 11:38:58 PM
I've always had a thing about clear mono or at least clear'ish'. Not sure how much it matters ?
Same here Jim on both counts.
Alex
I have gone back to Maxima after discovering that several of my exotica tippets were rotten last season (not the whole spools just in some sections which in a way was worse). If I am using a manufactured tapered leader then Rio have not yet let me down.
Another problem, that I accept is down to deficiencies in my casting, is the soft and fine flouros were giving me more wind knots than Maxima so any advantage of invisibility was more than matched by the disadvantage of lost fishing time undoing tangles.
Ultragreen is very good it's just very thick although I did get a few grayling on dries in September off the tweed using it. I tend to use maxima when loch fishing or filling mill flouro
I solely use ABR for everything on the river. Prefer it over GTM solely due to colour. I've been using the LS version for winter Grayling fishing. I had half a season using orvis super strong but soon switched back to ABR.
Quote from: sagecirca on December 20, 2017, 11:08:38 AM
I solely use ABR for everything on the river. Prefer it over GTM solely due to colour. I've been using the LS version for winter Grayling fishing. I had half a season using orvis super strong but soon swditched back to ABR.
Assuming you are using your usual half blood knot, have you not had any problems with the knot slipping David?
Alex
Yep half blood knot with 4-5 turns depending on diameter. Never had an issue (touch wood!).
Quote from: sagecirca on December 20, 2017, 02:27:59 PM
Yep half blood knot with 4-5 turns depending on diameter. Never had an issue (touch wood!).
That is interesting. I have been using the uni knot for years now after having knotty problems with Frog Hair. The trouble with the uni knot is it leaves a single annoying kink near the fly (or at least it does the way I tie it).
I have been going to try the Davy knot as an alternative, but maybe I should be comparing the half blood against the Davy for knot strength.....
I will post my results in another thread.
Alex
Stroft is not for me I tried a few spools when it first appeared on the scene some years back but soon found it to be wanting with a few unexplained breakages with larger fish (Rainbows) & quickly moved back to the more reliable nylon, maybe I just had a bad batch I don't know. Some like it but not me, today I only use Maxima & Drennan Sub Surface & have few if any bad things to say about these two.
Tight Lines
I've been using Fulling Mill FC for for the last season and I've been reasonably satisfied with it. I have had the odd 'failure' for reasons unknown here and there and I've always had a wee niggly thought that while it is not too bad, it is still not 100 per cent reliable.
I think the Brown 'Chameleon' Maxima is a great line, the colour puts me right off. I've tried the clear Maxima but It isn't the same as the brown. The Finalists for me so far are the Rio Co Polymer, The Sigh tfree G3 and possibly one of the Stroft lines. I use fulling Mill tapered leaders and I'm wondering how compatible these various tippets will be for knotting with the FM leader? Does anyone do this or do you just construct a leader from your chosen material in different breaking strains or diameters ?
Forgot to add, I use Seagaur for pike and saltwater leaders and I try to use a palomar knot where possible. Never had any issues with it at all but I don't fancy it in smaller diameters.
Quote from: Highlander on December 20, 2017, 03:01:29 PM
Stroft is not for me I tried a few spools when it first appeared on the scene some years back but soon found it to be wanting with a few unexplained breakages with larger fish (Rainbows) & quickly moved back to the more reliable nylon, maybe I just had a bad batch I don't know. Some like it but not me, today I only use Maxima & Drennan Sub Surface & have few if any bad things to say about these two.
Tight Lines
I wouldn't use it for rainbows as they tend to smash take you and I think stroft fails easily if loaded that quickly. On rivers that generally isn't an issue for me.
Quote from: haresear on December 20, 2017, 02:56:41 PM
That is interesting. I have been using the uni knot for years now after having knotty problems with Frog Hair. The trouble with the uni knot is it leaves a single annoying kink near the fly (or at least it does the way I tie it).
I have been going to try the Davy knot as an alternative, but maybe I should be comparing the half blood against the Davy for knot strength.....
I will post my results in another thread.
Alex
Never used any other knot Alex than the half blood knot. I think we spoke about this at Camps? I did very, very briefly try the rapala knot for nymphs when fishing in Bosnia as our guide reckoned it made the nymph move more like a natural but I didn't really persevere with it. You need to show me the Davy knot when we are out next :8)
Quote from: rannoch raider on December 20, 2017, 03:34:27 PM.....compatible these various tippets will be for knotting with the FM leader? Does anyone do this or do you just construct a leader from your chosen material in different breaking strains or diameters ?
As long as you reasonably step down in diameter from the end of the tapered leader to your tippet I don't see it being a problem. I go from a 5X leader to a 6x tippet for most of my river fishing and in the height of summer and fishing wee, wee stuff I go from 6X to 7X.
Yeah, I think that as long as the step down in diameter was not too steep then that wouldn't be an issue. I'm wondering how the different surfaces and densities of the materials would go. very hard to soft for instance.
Quote from: rannoch raider on December 20, 2017, 04:44:52 PM
Yeah, I think that as long as the step down in diameter was not too steep then that wouldn't be an issue. I'm wondering how the different surfaces and densities of the materials would go. very hard to soft for instance.
. If you use a water/surgeons knot you can knot thick to thin without any bother. Being old school I tend to think in pounds rather than diameters but I have successfully knotted 8lb to 4lb in the past with no problems.
That said I would be less confident knotting a FC butt section to fine copolymer because FC is so stiff. In the reverse of that, which is more likely anyway, I wouldn't want a big step downbin diameter.
Alex
Quote from: sagecirca on December 20, 2017, 04:32:28 PM
Never used any other knot Alex than the half blood knot. I think we spoke about this at Camps? I did very, very briefly try the rapala knot for nymphs when fishing in Bosnia as our guide reckoned it made the nymph move more like a natural but I didn't really persevere with it. You need to show me the Davy knot when we are out next :8)
I will have to learn the Davy knot first myself :)
Aye, I remember at Camps res. being surprised that you had jad no problems with the old half blood on modern fine diameter lines, but hey if it works why try to fix it?
I use Maxima ultra green for all of my fishing.
A slight deviation from the thread but what is the best time for Camps. I have been in touch with Gerry White about fishing down there but I will be looking for more info in the new year.
Billy
Quote from: Billy on December 21, 2017, 08:36:28 AM
I use Maxima ultra green for all of my fishing.
A slight deviation from the thread but what is the best time for Camps. I have been in touch with Gerry White about fishing down there but I will be looking for more info in the new year.
Billy
I can't really help you Billy. I have fished the place a few times over the years but not regularly enough to see a pattern develop.
All I can say is that I have done best when there has been a hatch of olives. I would guess May might offer the best chance of seeing a hatch, but I can't recall what time of year I have done best.
One of the members told me that fish are smaller these days than they used to be. That was my feeling tòo. When I first fished it I usually landed a few fish around 12oz to 1lb mark, but IIan Millar says he only gets a pound fish every 40 or so fish these days. He puts that down to the fact that the bank was altered about 20 years ago by the bulldozers. Apparently it was all grassy banks until then.
Alex
This report is a little dated but I found it an interesting comparison of tippet material produced by what seem to be some pretty knowledgeable people.
https://www.yellowstoneangler.com/gear-review/tippet-shootout-seaguar-grandmax-trouthunter-orvis-mirage-riopowerflex-pline-dairiki-varivas-sa-climax-maxima-froghair-stoft-umpqua
Quote from: arawa on December 21, 2017, 04:14:23 PM
This report is a little dated but I found it an interesting comparison of tippet material produced by what seem to be some pretty knowledgeable people.
https://www.yellowstoneangler.com/gear-review/tippet-shootout-seaguar-grandmax-trouthunter-orvis-mirage-riopowerflex-pline-dairiki-varivas-sa-climax-maxima-froghair-stoft-umpqua
....won't bother with the davy knot then!
Thanks for that. Great find, very interesting and informative. I like the sound of all three of the top three. I've ordered some Rio Powerflex and I'm sure I'll be happy with it. I might pick up a spool of FC for finer single dries as I can recall David (Sagecirca) handing me a fly to try that was so small that I couldn't get my 'tow rope' tippet through the eye. :shock: Sounds like tippet rings may be worth considering too ?
Quote from: sagecirca on December 21, 2017, 04:51:26 PM
....won't bother with the davy knot then!
:lol: :lol: Me too.
Actually I have just completed my own mini test. I used Powerflex 5x and did a quick comparison of the 3 turn uni knot vs the improved clinch (5 turn tucked half blood). I then did a much shorter test of the Uni knot v the Davy knot.
Uni v Tucked Half Blood...... The Uni eventually broke after it had defeated 5 Half Blood knots in a row. I suspect the nylon had eventually got stressed on the Uni knot. In 10 tests the Uni knot only failed that single time. Winner was undoubtedly the Uni knot for me at least.
Uni v Davy......I only needed to tie 3 Davy knots to confirm to myself that the Uni knot is stronger in that head to head too.
Maybe it's just how I tie them, but I find the Uni consistently stronger than the Clinch/Half Blood. I would be interested to see how others get on if they were to carry out a similar quick trial.
By the way, I was surprised not to see the Surgeons/Water knot in that Yellowstone Angler trial. The J knot looks like an interesting variation though.
I was surprised also to see the Blood knot mentioned in despatches as a front runner for joining tippet to leader. As an even quicker test I have just had a two turn Water knot see off two Blood knots in a quick head to head :dunno
Alex
You clearly have too much time on your hands Alex :makefun
I've had my issues with knots over the years so I should probably put the time in. For what it's worth I use power flex 5x for fishing dry fly (at Alex's recommendation) it's good but I find I have to be careful knotting it. I use maxima of different breaking strains for everything else.
When I fished two dries last year on lochs I ended up using the maxima as well because I found it almost impossible to put a dropper on without the powerflex snapping, probably down to my lack of knotting skill though :(
Stroft ABR lads....stop being puffs :D
Quote from: sagecirca on December 22, 2017, 11:24:26 AM
Stroft ABR lads....stop being puffs :D
I'll certainly give it a trial on your recommendation. In NZ however I will stick with what I use just now.
Quote from: Lochan_load on December 22, 2017, 10:56:53 AM
When I fished two dries last year on lochs I ended up using the maxima as well because I found it almost impossible to put a dropper on without the powerflex snapping, probably down to my lack of knotting skill though :(
That's odd Andy. What knot did you use?
Alex
As much as claimed breaking strains it is the thinness of diameter that lets down fine monos. Folk have the idea that if I catch 10 fish from a boat using 4x or 3x then I am bound to catch 20 fish if I move to 5x because I can get the same strength now from the latest thinner mono. Staying with diameter is probably a better approach.
If you go down to finer diameter you must change your rod as well. Same rod but thinner tippets equals breakoffs.
Quote from: Bobfly on December 22, 2017, 12:00:07 PM
As much as claimed breaking strains it is the thinness of diameter that lets down fine monos. Folk have the idea that if I catch 10 fish from a boat using 4x or 3x then I am bound to catch 20 fish if I move to 5x because I can get the same strength now from the latest thinner mono. Staying with diameter is probably a better approach.
If you go down to finer diameter you must change your rod as well. Same rod but thinner tippets equals breakoffs.
I don't fully agree with your statement about changing the rod Vaughan. I suspect you mean that the finer material has less stretch and so is more susceptible to breakage through sudden pressure being put on it? Maybe to a degree that is true when fishing with pulled wet flies, but in that situation I suspect most of us would prefer to use a more robust standard mono such as maxima.
When I use Powerflex etc., I will usually be fishing dries or sometimes light nymphs. In those situation smash takes are rare and I don't feel the need to change to a less powerful rod. The angler is in control of the rod and should be able to compensate.
I can accept that the finer diameter material increases the possibility of "bite offs" through the line contacting trouty teeth. It certainly gives more problems with frizzing up when tying knots, tangles more easily and once it has tangled it usually means binning it. But, like a certain hair product it is "worth it". :)
Alex
Double grinner Alex, and I had to google it cos I don't know all the names :roll: just he knots I've always used :lol:
On rivers Alex you are already down to using a 3wt or a 4wt so these are not harsh rods. Many folks are using fine mono with much higher line ratings. Hence my comment about changing rods to better suit a lighter tippet.
I have used all sorts of knots and splices for all sorts of purposes over the years where climbing knots and fishing knots are all different. Tape sling knots, wired loops or ropes on nuts and wedges, belay knots and goodness knows what kinds of shock loadings and shock absorbers. What seems to be the case is that with fishing knots the finer monos simply cut through themselves and there is little safe margin. That makes a cushioned system necessary so a 10' 7wt rod and 5x tippet is no sensible match. I suppose the coarse angler deals with shock loading by having a shock-gum length in the system. Knots that are drawn to test a steadily increased load are not giving a representation of any kind of shock load resistance. A single overhand knot in a 15lb mono will resist any steady pull by hand but draw it up then jerk it and it will snap. Test rigs for mono strength and knot types are steady pull rigs not a drop shock testing. That would then be something that compares climbing rope assessment with fishing lines and all monos would then "get a real shock" and ratings would collapse.
Years back I bought a spool of Rio Nymph Shock at 12lbs and used a 9" piece as a sighter and a shock absorber. It seemed to work very well but I just got out of the way of using it and I simply use Rio Powerflex for everything for a few years now. The exception would be cheap Maxima Ultragreen on lochs. I have a notion to revisiting the Nymph Shock and give it another go in 2018.
Quote from: Lochan_load on December 22, 2017, 12:39:44 PM
Double grinner Alex, and I had to google it cos I don't know all the names :roll: just he knots I've always used :lol:
Make life easier for yourself Andy. Try a two turn water knot or indeed the J knot mention in the tippet comparison test.
Vaughan, what you are talking about is balanced tackle. I would go down to 5lb b.s. maxina etc.on a #7 rod, but not 5x Powerflex so I suppose I agree with you on that point.
Balanced tackle is a concept which is essential to understand if you are to fish light lines. That long trotting rod I was using the other week is a wonderful shock absorber (which was not required). Coarse anglers regularly land big fish on similar rods bThe biggest fish I have landed on a float rod was a 16lb pike from a fast weedy river. It took about 20 minutes to land on 4lb line but by not lowering the rod I kept the full benefit of the shock absorber effect of the suppleness of the rod.
Alex
The water knot is another one I use (googled the name) but only when I think I'm going to catch smaller stuff because I assume it's not as strong as the grinner. Not based on any science just an assumption I made.......probably because it's a lot quicker and easier I just assume it's a bit shitter!
Agree entirely with what you say Alex. Some cushioning shock absorber is essential in the system or knots will fail. That is just what I meant relating to a softer rod for finer tippets, and a bendy rod will tire fish perfectly well. Monos are not tested for shock loading and I wonder what the results would be for finer diameters. I could hazard a guess :shock: :shock:
Breakoffs due to abrasion are another concern altogether since any finer mono will be through in a second.
I took delivery of 5 spools of Stroft ABR today. Anybody want them? :worms
Seriously, I have been testing knots to destruction over the last couple of hours. I used the 5lb b.s. stuff as that is usually what I fish on the Clyde etc.
Where to start? Initially I liked the feel of the stuff and it is a bit stiffer than Powerflex. That stiffness seems to help it prevent curling up when knotted using the uni knot, which is an advantage over the Powerflex.
I pitted the 5 turn tucked half blood against a 3 turn uni knot. Now in a previous test using the Powerflex, the uni was the clear winner. I expected this to be the case with the Stroft too....wrong!
In fact in 25 tests the half blood won 11 tugs of war with uni only scoring 8 times.
Two thinhs worried me. Firstly the line itself broke between the knots 6 times. Admittedly I was simply tying a fresh losing knot on the broken line so fatigue/stress would have accounted for the line itself failing so often. However on at least two occasions the line parted between the knots when I used a fresh piece of line.
I don't know about you, but I expect and want my knot to fail first before the line breaks above the knot.
The other thing I really didn't like was the ease with which the knots were breaking ....some of the time. I have no way of quantifying it but to me it was breaking with little force applied. Conversely there were times when it seemed to take a fair pull to break it.
Like I say I can't quantify the amount of pull it was breaking at but I had initially started off by tying the knots to the eyes of two hooks. I felt the line was parting so easily it must be due to the hook eye cutting the Stroft. So much so that I disregarded the results of my first 10 tests and started again using heavy mono loops as a substitute for hook eyes.
So, I am back where I was with my previous experience with Stroft GTM (as opposed to the ABR stuff I have just bought). I feel distinctly uneasy about using it where there are bigger fish. Sometimes it seems it could tow a car and at others it seems to fail for no good reason.
Conclusion: I don't trust it and it won't be getting used. I will stick with what I know.
Alex
Very interesting that you have these results ... and that you have put in the effort to get them !!
Stroft ABR is supposed to be stiffer than Stroft GTM and the ABR is blue/grey and the GTM a light brown colour.
I bought some in the middle of 2016 and binned it all early into 2017 as unreliable and then continued with Rio Powerflex which seems at least to be consistent. My only grumble with the Powerflex is that is turns curly quite easily but I am probably trying to make a cast last too long. :roll:
Interesting analysis Alex.
With my scientist hat on-what force are you applying to the line when trying to break it? By that, is it measurable? Is it force equal to or greater than the stated breaking strain of said line?
ps. I never use 5 turns.....
pps. I'll buy the other 4 spools of ABR from you :8)
Quote from: Bobfly on December 23, 2017, 08:48:18 PM
Very interesting that you have these results ... and that you have put in the effort to get them !!
Stroft ABR is supposed to be stiffer than Stroft GTM and the ABR is blue/grey and the GTM a light brown colour.
I bought some in the middle of 2016 and binned it all early into 2017 as unreliable and then continued with Rio Powerflex which seems at least to be consistent. My only grumble with the Powerflex is that is turns curly quite easily but I am probably trying to make a cast last too long. :roll:
Vaughan, I have been using Powerflex for upwards of 10 years now and it has stayed consistent over that time for reliability. As you say, it gets curly but I think all of these fine diameter materials go the same way (except maybe fluoro, which I don't use). I usually just add 3 to to 5 feet of Powerflex to the end of a tapered leader when using my usual dry fly or light nymph, my standard leader length on an open river being 14/15 feet give or take. In among jungles or howling headwinds or sidewinds this is too long and I shorten up as required.
Alex
Quote from: sagecirca on December 23, 2017, 09:00:24 PM
Interesting analysis Alex.
With my scientist hat on-what force are you applying to the line when trying to break it? By that, is it measurable? Is it force equal to or greater than the stated breaking strain of said line?
ps. I never use 5 turns.....
pps. I'll buy the other 4 spools of ABR from you :8)
Well, as I said, I cant quantify the amount of force...
Actually, I could have as I have various spring balances, but I was really just trying to see which knot suits the Stroft best.
After typing that last bit I dug out a digital scale and tied a uni knot to it with the other end knotted to a mono loop using a 4 turn half blood :). The line broke
between the two knots before I even got a reading :shock:
That's enough for me.
When do you want the Stroft? Free gratis by the way :lol:
Suffice to say it shall not be travelling to NZ :)
Alex
More food for thought, not only on Stroft....,.#
3 Materials and a very quick two tests on each against a digital scale, pulling as slowly as possible.
Stroft ABR 0.14mm 2.3kg (5lbish) - Test 1 broke at 3.3lbs Test 2 broke at 4.6lbs
Powerflex 0.152mm 2.3kg (5lbish) - Test 1 broke at 4.0lbs Test 2 broke at 3.4lbs
Drennan Floatfish (fairly standard mono) 0.18mm 2.0kg (4.4lbs) Test 1 broke at 4.4lbs. Test 2 broke at 4.4lbs also (i.e. the stated breaking strain).
The moral of that admittedly very short test appears to be that you can't have your cake and eat it :) If you want consistently good breaking strains, you won't get it by using very fine diameter stuff. I'm away for a lie down :)
Alex
Another factor to bring into consideration can be the gauge of the hook eye wire. When you use a thin mono with a larger hook wire thickness there are tighter angles at the eye and then a knot slippage at a lower strain.
I think some seasonal nips are required to calm the nerves.
Quote from: haresear on December 23, 2017, 09:15:34 PM
When do you want the Stroft? Free gratis by the way :lol:
Alex
Catch up over a coffee? That's me off work until the 27th....
Quote from: Bobfly on December 23, 2017, 11:06:40 PM
Another factor to bring into consideration can be the gauge of the hook eye wire. When you use a thin mono with a larger hook wire thickness there are tighter angles at the eye and then a knot slippage at a lower strain.
I think some seasonal nips are required to calm the nerves.
That is certainly true of the half blood Vaughan, but not of the uni knot which is essentially a slip knot and can be used as a reel arbour knot for backing. I have taken your advice on the seasonal nips though :D
Quote from: sagecirca on December 23, 2017, 11:13:05 PM
Catch up over a coffere? That's me off work until the 27th....
Not sure I can manage before then David. Plus I have a funeral to go to on 29th.. Should manage something after that if it suits,
Alex
Quote from: haresear on December 23, 2017, 11:20:03 PM
Not sure I can manage before then David. Plus I have a funeral to go to on 29th.. Should manage something after that if it suits,
Alex
Yeh no worries...drop me a text and I'll see how I'm fixed.
haresear
Without your precision, before the start of last season I tested my large collection of exotic tippet material (no Stroft) and, with 2 exceptions, all seemed "rotten" in places – not everywhere - and snapped easily when pulled. The exceptions were Rio Powerflex tapered leaders and both types of Riverge. The level Rio Powerflex broke easily. Five spools of my then favourite tippet, Frogs Hair, were in really bad condition.
Despite its longevity and consistency, I am not a fan of Riverge in the finer sizes as, perhaps because of my casting style, I find it kinks and tangles easily. This season I used Rio tapers and Maxima (some spools of which are several years old but still perfect).
The odd thing is that despite finding so many problems with my tippet material at the end of 2016 I had no breakages or knot failures at all during the season. :? :?
Couple of quick things;
Davy knot - probably fair to say that I have had more break offs with it. But I am certain it is down to poor or rushed tying. A few of things that remedy this: 1 - you must make sure that the end of the tippet (the bit that will end up being the tag-end of your knot) sits in line with the shank of the hook as you tighten 2 - it is dead easy to get careless - remember that the first pass of the tag-end over the standing line goes in front (i.e. your side) not behind 3 - if there is any kind of 'mis-match' between tippet and hook size - or if you just think there might be big fish about, use the double Davy.
Stroft - I use the ABR almost exclusively now when I'm river fishing - usually the 0.10 mm/1.4kg/3.1lb but will drop down to 0.06mm (1.43lb) for really spooky fish or go up to 0.14 mm (5.1lb) if dredging the bottom with heavy nymphs. All personal preference of course, but I think the lower diameter and increased suppleness gives better presentation and if nymphing it helps the nymph get down quicker.
That said, I will use fluoro when very long line (and long tippet) nymphing 'Bosnian style' (don't ask!) but that's more because it's less visible in the very clear water I would use that method and also because you're not fishing at depth.