Pack Weight

[Allan Crawford]

For once, Wikipedia is quite helpful on this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naismith's_rule

Cheers Ken
'Allow 1 hour for every 3 miles (5 km) forward, plus 1 hour for every 2000 feet (600 metres) of ascent.

This is what I learned at school in miles and feet, much later did I change to kilometers.
Goodluck with the Romains, at least you can fly there, could have taken a while by Naismths rule  :lol:

[James Dunlop]

This looks ok. You could save a kilo on your sleeping bag and tent.  With the tent there are some roomy tents at 1.5 kg such as  a Zephros 1  for  £ 99 .  Also there are plenty of warm 3 season bags under a kilo with the odd down one about a £100.   

If this a 6 night trip?  I dont think I could get my food down to 4 kilos unless I paid for a lot of expensive dried stuff which is low on calories and taste. 

Also your mat is lighter than mine. Im tall and skinny and need a heavier air mat to sleep. I used to use the foam mats but the pressure on my hip because I sleep on my side kept me awake.

[Midgie Hater]

This is, to me - as a mountain/wilderness wanderer and now wild fisher in addition to years of the former - all very interesting. Thanks for starting  this thread Fishtales.

Interestingly (well, not very interstingly, except perhaps to me   ): although I have a science degree, and, in my younger years did do a lot of analysis re: route-planning, factoring in the effects of terrain and weather on progress and timecales, shaving off pack weight and attempting to apply things like Naistmith' Rule at times, as the years have gone by i've become much more relaxed about these things. Note "relaxed" rather than "complacent". This is probably a result of experience of course.

For instance, with regard to pace against pack weight: imho I think this is the single-most important variable to consider, as everything else hinges upon it. One could travel as light as product technology, ability to afford such tech and fitness allows of course, but assuming we are not all bottomless financial pits (i'm certainly not being between full time jobsd and being unable to secure much in the way of freelance work in the interrim), we have to go with what we have - and in that case pace must, imho be the bottom line because, depending on where one is going, it can be the differnece between life and death.

So, it sounds bleedin' obvious but the best yardstick surely has to be - what do you need to take as a bare minimum? What can you reasonably do without? What little luxuries are you prepared to carry to make - what is for most people probably a holiday - a pleasant experience. Given the first two points are established, how fast - and importanly, how far can you travel with the minimum accountrements? I come back to experience - I think it's the only way to know for certain. We all know our bodies and our fitness peaks (and troughs!    ) and how this translates into ability on the ground given the terrain we will be pasing through. Knowledge of the route and available daylight (assuming the individual isn't comfortable with walking in the dar-  and that also might be a factor of route knowledge/terrain).

I suppose my point is that it's very easy to become over-obsessive about this issue (and i'm not suggesting anyone here is btw! Besides, there would be a degree of "pot/kettle/black in such an accusation coming from me given my past), to the point where perhaps it becomes, for some, more than the sum of the experiences we are wanting to have out in the big, wild somewhere.

Not sure how much this post contributes to the overall, but just, as I say, my thoughts

Having said all this, i've known people in the bothy maintenance world who (outwardly) think nothing of carrying 10kg of coal and a 24 pack of McEwans or Tennants to some remote "doss", but i've also seen some of said individuals literally crumble under the weight of their own machismo - and what, I wonder, is the point of that? Some of these people have many many years of experience in the hills or wherever, but some "cultural" aspect of that world seems to compel them to do such things! Mind you, i've carried bags of coal in my rucksack across peaty, boggy ground myself - probably because, on observing some of those around me it seemed to be the correct "etiquette" until I took a step back and thought "whit"?

So, after this convoluted ramble (No pun intended. sorry!) I guess I do in fact agree that light is best - if possible - in order to maximise the enjoyment. Many years of bivvying on mountain-tops taught me that one I suppose

Les

[Fishtales]

This looks ok. You could save a kilo on your sleeping bag and tent.  With the tent there are some roomy tents at 1.5 kg such as  a Zephros 1  for  £ 99 .  Also there are plenty of warm 3 season bags under a kilo with the odd down one about a £100.   

If this a 6 night trip?  I dont think I could get my food down to 4 kilos unless I paid for a lot of expensive dried stuff which is low on calories and taste. 

Also your mat is lighter than mine. Im tall and skinny and need a heavier air mat to sleep. I used to use the foam mats but the pressure on my hip because I sleep on my side kept me awake.

To answer some of your points.

The tent is just under 2 kilos and at £18 when I bought it ten or something years ago and it is still going strong would seem a shame to retire it

A light three season sleeping bag may look like a good investment but that isn't the first time I have had temperatures approaching freezing and this time with gale force winds removing heat from the tent. I was glad of the extra warmth as I hate sleeping in clothes as I always feel colder rather than warmer when I do.

Food wise is always a compromise. There is a post somewhere with pictures of my usual food. This year I had a few different ones to try. They were heavier than I normally take and put the weight of food up to 6 kilos but, in hindsight, they were worth it in the end.

[Allan Crawford]

This is, to me - as a mountain/wilderness wanderer and now wild fisher in addition to years of the former - all very interesting. Thanks for starting  this thread Fishtales.

Interestingly (well, not very interstingly, except perhaps to me   ): although I have a science degree, and, in my younger years did do a lot of analysis re: route-planning, factoring in the effects of terrain and weather on progress and timecales, shaving off pack weight and attempting to apply things like Naistmith' Rule at times, as the years have gone by i've become much more relaxed about these things. Note "relaxed" rather than "complacent". This is probably a result of experience of course.

For instance, with regard to pace against pack weight: imho I think this is the single-most important variable to consider, as everything else hinges upon it. One could travel as light as product technology, ability to afford such tech and fitness allows of course, but assuming we are not all bottomless financial pits (i'm certainly not being between full time jobsd and being unable to secure much in the way of freelance work in the interrim), we have to go with what we have - and in that case pace must, imho be the bottom line because, depending on where one is going, it can be the differnece between life and death.

So, it sounds bleedin' obvious but the best yardstick surely has to be - what do you need to take as a bare minimum? What can you reasonably do without? What little luxuries are you prepared to carry to make - what is for most people probably a holiday - a pleasant experience. Given the first two points are established, how fast - and importanly, how far can you travel with the minimum accountrements? I come back to experience - I think it's the only way to know for certain. We all know our bodies and our fitness peaks (and troughs!    ) and how this translates into ability on the ground given the terrain we will be pasing through. Knowledge of the route and available daylight (assuming the individual isn't comfortable with walking in the dar-  and that also might be a factor of route knowledge/terrain).

I suppose my point is that it's very easy to become over-obsessive about this issue (and i'm not suggesting anyone here is btw! Besides, there would be a degree of "pot/kettle/black in such an accusation coming from me given my past), to the point where perhaps it becomes, for some, more than the sum of the experiences we are wanting to have out in the big, wild somewhere.

Not sure how much this post contributes to the overall, but just, as I say, my thoughts

Having said all this, i've known people in the bothy maintenance world who (outwardly) think nothing of carrying 10kg of coal and a 24 pack of McEwans or Tennants to some remote "doss", but i've also seen some of said individuals literally crumble under the weight of their own machismo - and what, I wonder, is the point of that? Some of these people have many many years of experience in the hills or wherever, but some "cultural" aspect of that world seems to compel them to do such things! Mind you, i've carried bags of coal in my rucksack across peaty, boggy ground myself - probably because, on observing some of those around me it seemed to be the correct "etiquette" until I took a step back and thought "whit"?

So, after this convoluted ramble (No pun intended. sorry!) I guess I do in fact agree that light is best - if possible - in order to maximise the enjoyment. Many years of bivvying on mountain-tops taught me that one I suppose

Les

I have similiar thoughts and dont get over excited about shaving ounces for hill loch trips especially with expensive pieces of kit, but its very personnel and carrying lighter loads is always good. Sandys kit was good weight wise but then I noticed he carried quiet a bit of camera gear in for the trip, which I assumed he enjoyed using and I/we enjoyed the results, Sandy do you have the weight of the camera kit and how this compares to the overall weight.
Otherwise the more you're prepared to suffer the lighter you can go, earlier this year (February) I used a one season sleeping bag while on an overnight trip to a bothy, it wasnt the most comfortable night and I was wearing every piece of clothing I had including waterproofs but the next day on a long walk out over 3 Munros it helped me enjoy the day while achieving the objective.

[Fishtales]

The camera kit came out at 2.245kgms. They weren't in the bag though The camera was around my neck, the small video camera was in my trouser pocket and the head cam was on my head with the recorder and wires in my pocket. The big camera is always with me though, even when I was carrying 25+ kgms it was around my neck, or one like it. The weight lost by leaving it behind wouldn't make any difference to the pack weight but would make a difference to the overall weight carried but then I wouldn't have the pictures.

As it happens I have rethought the camera and have now purchased this.

http://shop.fujifilm.co.uk/finepix-f800exr-refurbished.html

It wont replace the big one but it will be taken on the next long trip and leave the big one at home and see how things go. It may be that it will end up as another extra instead though

[Allan Crawford]

Thats 10% extra  just for camera gear, thanks again for the report and videos.
Recentlyt I rarely carry a camera bigger than a point and shoot (as it happens considering buying a Fuji XP50 or XP60), sometimes I wish I made more of an effort to carry the DSLR ( if I can get it off the wife who is into taking photos) and some lenses.

[Fishtales]

My basic kit, all the things that I would have to take like tent, sleeping bag, rucksack etc. comes to  8.34 Kilos. That would be in good conditions and no cameras so adding a weeks food would put it up to 12-14 Kilos. I then have to add in fishing gear, fly rod and reel, flies, stripping basket etc. 1Kilo and extras like fleece, hat gloves 1 Kilo. That is 14-16 Kilos now which leaves the cameras to add in. Take out the DSLR and replace it with the new compact and it is approx .745 Kilos which gives 15-17 Kilos total weight for a week using the minimum, for my well being, amount of kit. The rest is taken up with other gear that I might need depending on the time of year and weather forecast. There are very few items I take with me that aren't used at some point even if only for a few moments. If I didn't have them though it may just be enough to make me feel miserable if only for the short time that I needed them. I could compromise by getting lighter gear but I know that what I have can cope with anything the Scottish weather can throw at me and that I will stay comfortable and enjoy it without feeling miserable and wishing I hadn't gone.

[Midgie Hater]

There are very few items I take with me that aren't used at some point even if only for a few moments. If I didn't have them though it may just be enough to make me feel miserable if only for the short time that I needed them. I could compromise by getting lighter gear but I know that what I have can cope with anything the Scottish weather can throw at me and that I will stay comfortable and enjoy it without feeling miserable and wishing I hadn't gone.

Yep, that's my general yardstick too   Mind you, when I was, for financial reasons in between lightweight (ish) tents, in order to camp in or on the mountains I was forced to take an old Coleman tent weighing in at nearly 3kg and not really that stable in the (inevitable) winds we experience most of the time!

To answer some of your points.
A light three season sleeping bag may look like a good investment but that isn't the first time I have had temperatures approaching freezing and this time with gale force winds removing heat from the tent. I was glad of the extra warmth as I hate sleeping in clothes as I always feel colder rather than warmer when I do.

Food wise is always a compromise.

Agreed! I've had some horrifically cold nights in the past when I decided to take less than a 4-season into the hills. Thankfully, it's now possible to find a good 3/4 season bag which is warm enough, light enough and - importantly - compact enough to ensure your body doesn't become a "body"!

Colliemore - ONE season??? Glad you're still with us   I borrowed what was suppsoe to be a 3-season bag for a hill/bothy trip to the Caringorms a few years back as I was at that time in the market for a new bag and wanted to see how the latest tech compared with the more bulky (but generally warm) bags i'd had in the past. Even inside a very small bothy, with stoves blazing and a little wood for the fire, temperatures outside dropped to -10 overnight and tbh I was surprised that I woke up at all the next morning! Never felt so cold (except one occasion before when my bivvy bag failed in the middle of the night in heavy rainfall during an April stravaig through Kintail and Affric, and I awoke at 5am with early stage hypothermia, requiring a rapid descent and quick exit by thumb-power since my bus ticket wasn't valid until the next day. Ahhh the memories  :roll: )

[Allan Crawford]

Colliemore - ONE season??? Glad you're still with us   I borrowed what was suppsoe to be a 3-season bag for a hill/bothy trip to the Caringorms a few years back as I was at that time in the market for a new bag and wanted to see how the latest tech compared with the more bulky (but generally warm) bags i'd had in the past. Even inside a very small bothy, with stoves blazing and a little wood for the fire, temperatures outside dropped to -10 overnight and tbh I was surprised that I woke up at all the next morning! Never felt so cold (except one occasion before when my bivvy bag failed in the middle of the night in heavy rainfall during an April stravaig through Kintail and Affric, and I awoke at 5am with early stage hypothermia, requiring a rapid descent and quick exit by thumb-power since my bus ticket wasn't valid until the next day. Ahhh the memories  :roll: )

Yes I know, this bag in purely for the mental effect of having something to climb into and not recommended for the wild fishing trips :shock:
Though I should add that I had on two thermal tops, fleece, water proofs top & bottom, an old down jacket and hats, the temperture got down to -1C maybe a little lower but not the -5C to -10C you would expect at this time of year given high pressure and clear night. With a 3/4 length inflatable mat and I was warm enough though I like to sleep in a cool room when at home 
I have slept out on colder nights with the same gear in my climbing days though I did think to myself that next time I should make the effort to find an old down sleeping bag that I have some where in storage and haven't found after moving houses.